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Surprise attack Stacking with other Surprise attack users

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Stampysaur, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    I am asking this again because I never got an answer back in October, I am hoping people may have an answer now.

    [​IMG]

    My reading is that you can stack the negative modifiers (from surprise attack) against a single target if you coordinate multiple surprise attack users to target the same enemy troop. this is because the negative mod imposed does not require it to be face to face.

    Previously the argument against has been that you can not stack the same modifier multiple times. however I see this rule nowhere.

    what do you think?
     
  2. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    If Trooper A and Trooper B both declare surprise attack against Trooper C, the modifiers between the attacks don’t stack because Trooper A’s modifiers don’t apply to Trooper B’s face-to-face roll.

    The fact that you roll one Dodge roll and use the same physical roll for every attacker doesn’t change that fact.
     
  3. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    Except the penalty is applied regardless of whether the rolls are face to face. It says this clearly at the end of the first bullet point for effects.

    Trooper A applies a -3 for anything trooper C does.

    Trooper B applies a -3 for anything trooper C does.

    therefore a -6 would be applied.

    why would they not stack?
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This.

    MODS such as CC Attack (-3) and Trinity (-3) also do this. They're applied to the target of the attack regardless of whether it's a FTF or not.

    The only mods that appear not to are ones like Mimmetism (because it only applies to rolls against the user) or associated with Martial Arts (which specifies FTF).

    However, it gets weird when you apply Impact Templates to this. If Alice and Charlie both Surprise Attack Bob and Bob shoots a Combi back at Alice then Bob will suffer a -6 MOD from the stacked Surprise Attacks. However of Bob shoots a HRL back then because of the Impact Template rules Bob only suffers the MODs generated by the Main Target (ie any MODs caused by Charlie would be ignored).
     
  5. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Wait so a pair of Ninjas and the like can impose a -9in CC, potentially -12 with more(max right)?


    QUOTE="inane.imp, post: 399067, member: 1800"]
    However, it gets weird when you apply Impact Templates to this. If Alice and Charlie both Surprise Attack Bob and Bob shoots a Combi back at Alice then Bob will suffer a -6 MOD from the stacked Surprise Attacks. However of Bob shoots a HRL back then because of the Impact Template rules Bob only suffers the MODs generated by the Main Target (ie any MODs caused by Charlie would be ignored).[/QUOTE]

    Yeah that is weird, I dont understand how that works, oversight?
     
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Probably not. Only the spearhead trooper would actually attack.
     
  7. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    You are talking about this?

    ► All MODs applied to the attacker’s Roll are determined by the Main Target. As stated above, this Roll will be compared separately against the Rolls of each enemy Ttrooper affected by the Template.

    that is odd.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The additional instances of Surprise Attack would apply, as the requirements for the MOD is the declaration of the [one assumes, valid] attack:

    "The user must declare a CC Attack, BS Attack, Hacking Program or other Comms Attack."

    The second Martial Arts wouldn't apply.

    So 2 Ninjas in a Coord CC Attack would impose:
    * -3 to a FTF from Martial Arts,
    * an additional -6 to any role the target performs due to Surprise Attack.
    * -6 if the Target Trooper declares BS Attack.

    So, a total of -9 or -15 before positive MODs.
     
    #8 inane.imp, Mar 30, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Personally I *think* that clause is only supposed to talk about LOF based Mods (ie Mimmetism, Cover, Low Vis Zones) and Mods that require a FTF (Suppression Fire and Martial Arts) not other mods that don't require LOF or a FTF (Surprise Attack, ECM or <Attack> (-px)).
     
    #9 inane.imp, Mar 30, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  10. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Bumping this thread because I’m really interested in knowing how this is actually meant to work.

    Having the Surprise penalty applied to all AROs even if they aren’t specifically directed at the model with the Surprise ability seems like it makes thematic sense. It’s bound to be more than a little distracting when you are dealing with a Ghulam that has his HMG pointed at you and a Daylami with a Panzerfaust jumps out of the bushes. That kind of seems like it might be an interesting tactical option that allows a few models to team up and punch above their weight.

    If the surprise modifiers from different models stack (as opposed to working more like the modifiers from firewalls), it seems like something that could end up getting really silly, really fast.
     
  11. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Not sure on the overall answer. But wanted to interject with an um actually to make sure you are aware. Its a change from n3 to n4.

    Daylami cannot declare surprise shot. Surprise shot is a special skill they must explicitly be stated, and not just be in a camo state.

    That said I am also interested in the answer to the op's question as there are plenty of skirmisher (def if they have a msr so that surprise packs a punch) + hmg that would love this combo.
     
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  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    From Surprise Attack:
    "This Attack imposes an additional negative MOD, as shown in round brackets in the Unit Profile [Surprise Attack (-3), Surprise Attack (-6)...]. This MOD only applies to targets of the Attack, and applies to any Skill Roll that those targets perform in ARO."

    From Coordinated Order:
    "All participating Troopers must declare and execute the exact same sequence of Skills."

    For i.e. Corrdinated BS Attacks this definitely seems to work, each trooper declares, executes and performs the Attack, fulfilling all requirements to stick the Surprise Attack MOD on the targets that then "applies to any Skill Roll that those targets perform in ARO" without a target or FTF limitation.

    Coordinated CC Attacks are a bit more difficult:
    "When declaring a CC Attack, only the Spearhead Trooper will perform the CC Attack. They apply a MOD of +1 to their B for each allied Trooper that is in Silhouette contact with the target."

    In the 2 Ninja's Coordinating CC Attack example only one Ninja performs CC Attack. However Surprise Attack does not care about performing, it only cares about a successful declaration (has to be successful for it to stay a CC Attack, otherwise it defaults to an Idle which doesn't satisfy Surprise Attack requirements)

    "The user must declare a CC Attack, BS Attack, Hacking Program or other Comms Attack."

    Declaration is enough for Coordinated CC Attack to trigger Surprise Attack. Doesn't matter if you end up only "assisting".

    Can't find anything during the Order Sequence or in the MOD rules that would prevent multiple instances of Suprise Attacks from stacking (aside from Sixth Sense/MSV3 cancelling them ofc).
     
    #12 Teslarod, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Surprise Attack applies to Normal rolls so that Direct Template Weapons can benefit from it; however, I personally don't like that these MODs can stack
     
  14. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I realized it was a was skill, I just didn't realize that Daylami didn't have it when I was picking unit names for my example.
     
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  15. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Ahh, my bad. Was thinking you were speaking out of experience of using or against camo daylami.
     
  16. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    It seems like it should work similar to Firewall where you take whatever the largest penalty is and use that instead of stacking them all.

    I think the rules don’t
    work that way but it would be nice if they did.
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Wait are we seriously saying that if I coordinate order with 2 Long Ya, a Guilang, and a Zencha I'm going to whack the target with a -12 MOD not even taking Mimetism or Cover into account assuming they don't have Sixth Sense or MSV3?

    That's dumb. That's basically a guaranteed kill against that many Panzerfausts and some camo dickhead FOing you for just in case you happen to still be breathing so he can launch guided missiles at you. Vast majority of models including TAGs can't even dodge when it's -12 MODs
     
    #17 Triumph, Apr 1, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Unless you have Sixth Sense.

    That's also a fairly significant investment into that specific tactic. It's also mostly overkill.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's not really. Half my Vanilla lists have that crap in it just because the Guilang and Long Ya are so much value.
     
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  20. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    *laughs in AVA Total 12 pts Metro*
     
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