The thing is it kinda depends on them buying the bluff. CC may get that response but they still have the option to Dodge. You can’t really lock them into a CC Attack. Different troops are going to respond in different ways though, clearly.
They're locking in the sense they've got nothing but shit options If they decide to Dodge instead of CC attack, then you move into them instead of past them and they're contesting a lethal attack with a non lethal ARO on a stat that is often the lowest one they have available, lower than CC and BS. Basically a real feelsbadman. Basically choose do you want to probably die to a D-Charge to the face right now vs your shitty PH stat, or do you want even more likely die to getting shot in the ass trying to dodge on your shitty PH stat -3 next order? Basically opponent is being robbed of having a chance to meaningfully defend themselves with a lethal ARO, being forced into using a shittier non lethal ARO, in a situation where they should have LOF to respond with a gun. That last bolded bit is what will probably be the part that upsets people, and it's why I'm hesitant to try and use the interaction IRL.
It was one of the shittiest interactions I had at the table in N3. "You're fucked and you can't do fuck all about it" is not a great gaming experience.
It's basically a "You have a flamethrower, but I can charge around a corner and right into you and you won't manage to press the trigger fast enough to burn me. Why? Because I'm so awesome!" type of interaction. Awful.
If it wasn't for the fact that CC in this game was such a huge on-off switch where there's a vast gap between those able and those less able, I don't think people would have as much of a problem with this. That, and I think a lot of people have become used to employing tactics that zones melee units out of the tactical game. Not going to lie and say I think this is all fine, but I don't see this being a huge deal for 4-4 MOV units, I am very worried about what Yojimbo and Zuleyka can do. I'm also a bit concerned about how this is increasing the value of smoke a lot more. This does little for making a Hulang's melee investment proportionally valuable, while it does a lot for e.g. Yojimbo who's got the whole playbook of mitigating features; impetuous, smoke, very high C abilities, etc. More planters, trash bins, and general doodaads near corners is perhaps a good mitigating tactic where people find this to be too potent. For anyone raging about this, though; I don't think this is FAQable without a major edition revision unless you're really propagating for increasing complexity and adding an ever increasing number of exceptions to core rules.
It definitely punishes turtling and encourages putting up a lot of AROs, which is a direction that N4 had already very much taken. And honestly, is probably consistent with new players' mental image when they hear about the ARO system. Reactive player has a bunch of guys with guns defending his side from the active player's guys with guns. If the reactive player tries to hide, Zuleyka will drive over there and teach him a lesson. Whether it's a problem is an empirical question. For players who are worried about it, you could spend your time complaining on the forums, or you could play some games with Yojimbo and try to leverage CC+move, then report back...
I don't think basically blanket FAQing the CC attack skill to only being usuable as the second skill declared is really a problem. We did similar shit for mounting/dismounting in N3 and nobody's brain exploded with rules complexity. If anything that straight up helped solve the complexity issue by just removing a fuckload of weird interactions and questions from the equation.
I wonder how much of this is a big deal because the rules are not working how people thought they did. I theorize that alot of people didn't actually thoroughly read n4. They probably skimmed n4 and applied n3 thinking or assumed things worked like in n3.
Absolutely. These interactions aren't a surprise - people have been pointing them out on these forums since N4 launched. But other people were like "obviously that's not what's intended, stop being gamey," when that wasn't obvious at all, unless one assumed the system was intended to work the same as in N3. So the interactions all ended up languishing in the Unanswered Questions list, because nobody could agree on whether or not the changes from N3 were intended. I do wish that CB had, at the start of N4, issued a clear statement of "yes, the order expenditure sequence in N4 is fundamentally different in the following ways, and yes, that does create some specific different interactions in the following ways (HD dodge-reveal, CC ARO provoke, etc.)." If the message had hit at launch, when everyone was expecting a new ruleset, I don't think we'd have seen the same outrage we're seeing now. That said, I also think the outrage will blow over once people actually play some games knowing the N4 rules. And once things have calmed down, there'll be space for CB to fix any interactions that turn out to actually be broken in practice, and not just in internet-theory.
Not exactly the same situation. Altering mounting/dismounting to only be declareable at start of the order doesn't have run-on-effects with the rest of the game system. Now, I'm enjoying how the N4 rules have fewer and fewer exceptions and special cases the more they FAQ it. Don't take that away, please.
Neither does amending the CC attack skill to only be declarable as the second skill. Think about it like this until the recent set of discussions even brought to light the mechanics could be abused like this, I guarantee 99% of the population would've been playing the situation as Move first, then CC attack regardless of the situation. FAQing it just makes it stay this way. Exactly the way you were already playing the game.
Ok folks - how about other short skills that require silhouette contact? Let's say a Doctor - Zondbots move 6, which is pretty lot for a 1" wide base. You have an unconscious dude on the ground, covered by enemy ARO. First short: Doctor ARO: Dodge/CC attack/Reset - standing there, mouth gaping eyes lolling in the sockets Second short: Move to S2S to heal... We already have a distinction between LOF requiring and ZOC requiring AROs... maybe just add S2S requiring AROs to FAQ on declaration, same as LOF... wouldn't this solve all the problems?
I’m not really seeing the problem with the Dr one. Seems like smart play, I’d find it really cool if my opponent pulled it off. Right now there’s a single exception. I’m with @Mahtamori in that I’d prefer to have fewer exceptions rather than more.
So right now there is zero risk to a CC specialist if someone is around a corner? Declare CC If target declares CC, use your second short skill to move around into the targets back arc and shoot it in the back with your next order or just keep moving to where you want. If target declares dodge move in and stab. You have zero risk of getting killed even vs other CC specialists. And as an added bonus it works as a pseudo cautios movement that even works in ZoC and even for bikes. There is a nice flowchart to be made here in how to play risk free Infinity. :) Sound like a fun and engaging way to play the game for everybody involved....
I don't think Guard benefits from this interaction because it needs a LoF check which happens at declaration.
There is not enough movement for a 4-4 to do this and a 6-2 will have some troubles. If your opponent has some units providing overwatch it'll still not be risk free.
Sure, but the -6 to dodge them was removed in the N2 => N3 transition because it made them too powerful as offensive tools, and CB wanted them to be defensive. So I don't think this interaction was intended.
