To function an ARO must: 1. Be eligible to be declared. If it's not eligible to be declared you can't declare it. This is checked prior to declaration. 2. Be valid. If it's not found to be valid it becomes an Idle. It's checked at Step 5. 3. Meet its Requirements. If you don't meet the Requirements you can declare the skill but it'll become an Idle. This is checked at Step 6. What the FAQ does is say "for LOF the Requirements need to be checked prior to Declaration and if you don't meet them you can't declare it." It's not consistent with the rest of the rules (which is why I misremembered it). It would either be more consistent to make LOF a necessary precondition of Declaration of LOF based skills (ie. it prevents the skill from being eligible to being declared) OR permit the Declaration of BS Attack without LOF but change the Requirements to read "[At Declaration, the user must have been] able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the target of the BS Attack, unless the BS Weapon, Skill or piece of Equipment used doesn't require LoF." - which would mean that BS Attacks declared without LOF would fail and become an Idle at Step 6. Largely this is a technical discussion of how the FAQ is an exception to the way the ARO system works rather than using the system to achieve the intended outcome (BS Attacks declared without LOF aren't a thing).
I don't know why, logically, they didn't just forfeit some of the "cool" factor of being the only game that gets to say "everything happens at the same time", in lieu of just saying ARO and Skill Declarations are checked for Requirements before they are declared. This would clean up the game so much and though some people might say that some players will slow the game down, I say this to that, a model only has so many AROs available to it within ZoC and not give up hidden info or intention but the game will have sped up so much from this singular and simple change that all benefits outweigh the minor inconvenience of a handful players. Plus, CB still gets to claim everything happens at the same time, because whatever skills declared will be checked and valid before they were declared, some things will be limited but there will be far less weird scenarios and people feeling like they got cheated somehow. The distinction between MOV+BS Attack and BS Attack+MOV is what was the focus of the attention of the active trooper? If he really wanted shoot who was in front of him at the beginning of the order and then after beginning to shoot, he decided he wanted to move, cool, and he and his initial target still get to choose where they want to shoot along his movement, ignoring potential AROs at the end of the of his Movement which was his 2and Short Skill. The other focus of a troop, is he really wants to get from Point A to Point B and make it there alive l, he'll deal with threats as they arise. So he declares Move, the original ARO of being shot at initially is still declared but then receives a secondary ARO of being shot at, and well, you get the point. CB still gets to say everything happens at the same time. Yes ZoC gets measured but it's better than players feeling like they got jipped and better than using idle as a bandaid for something that seems like a universal problem across the board. For others reading, this is an exercise in trying to understand the logic behind things and what might function as better logic, not an attempt to say any rule is this way right now. So for the love of God, take a chill pill. Secondary thought exercise in light of someone's response to MSV thought smoke. Say an MSV Kempeitai is the leader of a Haris containing Musashi, Yojimbo laid down smoke the previous order allowing the Haris team to move forward and within ZoC of a model whose LoF is now blocked by smoke. Their ARO in the new system will is Shoot, assuming the Kempeitai will also shoot. But instead Musashi moves into Silhouette contact with the 2nd Short Skill and the ARO is turned into idle :-( . In the way of Skills not being Declarable unless met first, the Dodge ARO was the only option to choose and no ARO oppprtunity was lost . And shooting back through smoke is still almost certain worse odds than Dodge. Errata sixth sense to read, that it can choose to ignore stealth so they still benefit and choose to Shoot or Dodge later. This actually makes those funky fireteam interactions go away.
Aight, so just in case everyone hasn't seen it - the implication of this is that it can be used in the active turn as well. An active trooper around the corner from someone with a flamethrower can declare CC Attack as their first skill, at which point their opponent is forced to declare CC Attack back or Dodge (or potentially hack), and then the active trooper can move into CC with their second short skill. This can be used to evade template weapons that otherwise would be used for defense. It's interesting, since "Dude hiding around corner with a shotgun" is such a big part of defensive play in N4, and we'll see how things play out, but it is again, one of those "gotchas" that is going to catch a lot of people by surprise.
It's the same result this N3 variant... A: Idle. R: Irrelevant ARO A: Move into BtB Second order... A: CC R: CC Except it's more efficient by 1 order. (Wether or not CC specialists needs to be or not be more order efficient is a different debate, but I think it's fine if they are a bit more efficient.)
Regardless of it being mechanically correct, it seems that it isn't a popular idea amongst the masses. Or at least to those on Tutorial Island.
A poll on facebook about a rule interaction. Should probably do a poll about who even read the actual interaction before answering the poll to be honest. The last time a link to this exact thread was posted on facebook, half the comment section complained that there was some overpowered interactions that don't exist in the rules (or even discussed in the actual thread) I bet if you made a post about a broken rule and linked to a blank forum thread, you'd still have a ton of people complaining in the comment section lol.
Would I also be right in assuming you can declare Dodge first to trigger a Dodge/CC ARO--then walk--then Dodge? I understand their Dodge moves last and will potentially get them out of base to base--but if you know they are greater than your move away around a corner--and you have a model with +(inches) to their Dodge and a decent Physique--this means you could potentially avoid being templated if they failed their Dodge.
I'm glad someone made it, and possibly less biased since it's not actually on the official forums. Would one of you be willing to create that exact same poll here with those same choices so people here can also vote under the precept that thread is not looking for solution but just looking to see how people feel about those interactions. There's also probably other interactions that dont feel right because of the Declare withoutbmeeting requirements situation. I hope one of you actually does make the poll, I would but I think you guys know why I wont...
Yeah, and actually, doing this with Yojimbo or Kuroshi are good examples of how extreme that can get. With essentially no BS ARO against 12 and 13 inches of movement. Since I love JSA, I think that's great, maybe not as fair as it should be and I'm certain other players will look at that like WTF...
Yojimbo can force an enemy to eat a sword or Koala without taking an ARO. Terrifying to mixed fireteams with CC guys in them. And in a separate Order can be more productive and drop a Smoke template on some hard boys to allow Domaru to advance...
Still surprised people take anything in the forums to be more than ephemera. At best its some context. If its not in the rules pdf/wiki/faq I fail to see how it can be official, given how useless blind forum searches for rules are.
Well, I've had TOs spring rulings from here that aren't even in the consolidated rules question thread on me. So it affects gameplay.
Actually Yojimbo gets even worse. First order Move+Place Koala. Second Order Declare CC Attack+Move. Because he can actually cover the 8 inches and is a credible CC threat it's obvious. But if anyone declares Dodge against his Koala, it's at -3 which is not built into Koalas like Mines but because of the Dodge Rules. My bad if someone already said this in regards to deployables. Bolded red, notice it only says if the active trooper is inside ZoC. A -3 PH MOD must be applied to the Dodge Roll in the following circumstances. Even if several of these circumstances apply, only one -3 MOD is applied. In ARO, if the Active Trooper is inside ZoC and outside LoF. If Dodging a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker. If Dodging the Template of a Deployable Weapon.
