Ok then this is the position of the SIL when you start measuring down the wall or you're no longer measuring from the same point on the base. You can't: 1. Always have the base supported. 2. Always measure from the same point of the base. 3. Not get free movement from a horizontal translation.
And vaulting does....? There's exceptions for when the silhouette is not placed slavishly along the line. By the way, what happens when climbing upwards, 'cause there's plenty of examples of how to measure the distance in the book ;)
This is the diagram of ladders in the rules: It makes sense to me that a SIL would transition like this at the top of the ladder (following the measured movement path). Which would mean this is legal (above a ladder): What doesn't make sense to me is that you measure up the leading edge and then transition horizontally and measure another base width along the path that the model is travelling without moving the SIL. Edit: The other alternative that makes sense to me is that transition occurs when HALF of the Trooper's base is unsupported. That meets all these requirements: This is now my preferred explanation. Which would mean this is legal, above a ladder or with C+:
Huh? I have no idea what you're on about. Edit: Oh, I get it now. Because it wasn't necessary to explain what I was getting at. But yes, the SIL would clip into the table. That's no different to this (in that it clips into terrain), except in the vertical:
Hmm, I’m not sure that’s a good idea. If you apply the same at the bottom of the wall, the Fusilier has to start on its side and completely within the ground before moving up the wall. ;-) EDIT - Ninja Mahtamori...
You missed my edit in my earlier post. On thinking this through: I think you transition when half your base is unsupported. So this is the maximum permissible (over a ladder):
What about if they only needed to be halfway in the ground? You're allowed to be halfway into terrain when it's the only way to complete the path.
But it’s not the only way to complete the path. Just do what Mahtamori suggested earlier, you measure the base width and put the Trooper on the surface.
It IS the only way to complete the path and have half the base supported and measure from the same point on the SIL. What you're suggesting doesn't measure from the same point on the SIL. But ok, if that's how it's supposed to be played *shrug* I'll shut up.
Actually no: @ijw What you're saying is that for a model that is on a ladder to pop onto and off a roof (to end up back where it started) it will take at least 2 x their base diameter in movement? That's a major limitation compared with being able to pop onto and onto a roof with 1 base diameter of movement. The distinction matters, it's not just me being technically curious.
You're measuring from the leading edge of the base. How is that not the same point on the Silhouette? Counter-question - why should it be possible to do that with one base diameter of movement? Note that this is not a ruling of any kind, but I don't see what you're trying to 'fix' here, compared to going from being fully on one surface to fully on the other surface.
You're not consistently measuring from the same point on the SIL though. The final result is the same but the intermediate placement is different. Rather you measure from the leading edge of the SIL. The SIL stops moving, but you continue measuring and then you warp the SIL forward to where you ended measuring. This means you lose fidelity at the point of transition, you can't only move a little way and then move back: it's all or nothing. I'm honestly just trying to understand where the SIL is allowed to be placed. Why I prefer my answer is because I think it's easier to explain to a new player when they go "hey can I just pop onto the roof to strip cover and then pop back down?" "Sure, the rules say you need to ensure that half your base width is supported at all times, so the model transitions from on the ladder to on the roof when half of its base is unsupported." Rather than: "You can but you stay on the ladder until you measure your full base width than you transitional. It's like that because we discussed it on the forums and that was the consensus."
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. Especially as your idea of having the Trooper start half in the ground suffers exactly the same issue. But this isn't correct. You can only do that when forced to by the surface being narrower than the base. And every surface involved is at least as wide as the base. Again, I'm not making a ruling, I don't see what you're trying to 'fix'. Or why you want placement over the edge to be completely different from when you Climb. Personally, I think it's far more consistent and much less likely to cause rules issues.
I'm interested in this. Climbing (and C+) allow vaulting, isn't it? I think measuring like in the second one should be allowed.
They're already different distances. This emphasises the fact that they're different. You're describing a SIL that Moves in the same way as one that benefits from a free horizontal transition in a Climb. It doesn't make sense to me that they're the same. What I'm trying to "fix" is that there isn't a clear and consistent way described in the rules to place SILs as part of Moving from a Horizontal to a "Horizontal". I know this because previously I have popped part of my base above the top of a ladder as part of the Move (to gain LOF onto a roof): both my opponent and I thought that this was entirely reasonable. As to "being forced": to move a model around a 90 transition you need some of the model's base to be unsupported or you need to warp from one face to the other. Given that we don't get the free movement inherent in a warp then being unsupported is necessary.
That bit I understand. I don't understand why you think it's more consistent to call on an unrelated rule that involves having to explain to players why Troopers bury themselves in the ground to be able to move up a wall. I don't understand your last sentence. 'Warping' and getting free movement are not a single concept, one does not depend on the other.
What happens if a Climbing trooper or C+ trooper wants to pass sometething like a billboard that has a bit of width but less than half of his base. All 3 positions being the same trooper trying to climb across a billboard (side view). The trooper can definitely reach start position red. The trooper can definitely reach green from start position red too given he has enough movement to get to a position fully supported by the right side. However, is the trooper moving from red to green ever going to be in position blue? The top of the billboard can't support half of his base, so there's no rule that supports his Silhouette ever being horizontally on top of the billboard. To the best of my ability to parse the rules wouldn't the trooper "Warp" straigth from red to green? while paying the movement distance as if he moved from red to blue to green BUT at no point of his Movement path be considered in a vertical position (i.e. blue) on top of the wall (i.e. important for LOF)
To expand on that with a more basic example: Moving up or down on a roof, there is no transitional state. You warp straight in between red and green, but have to pay the Movement distance your Silhouette travels. Moving up or down a roof with a parapet and ladder/C+: Going down: You move from red to orange using vault rules. Then you "Warp" from orange to green going down the wall and have to have enough remaining Movement to get there. Going up: You "Warp" from green to orange. You can be at the orange position (but not end your Movement there) because the Vault rules allow you to treat the height of the parapet as an obstacle to vault on your way to end position red.
