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Ladders and Partial Cover

Discussion in 'Rules' started by AntipodeanBolt, Mar 25, 2021.

  1. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    Good Afternoon Team.

    Page 37 of the Rule book states as follows: Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface. Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement label without needing to declare Jump or Climb, and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb. Movement distances are measured along the surface the Trooper moves along, as seen in the diagram.

    This read to me as though Ladders and Stairs are effectively Horizontal Surfaces and not Vertical Surfaces.

    Page 40 Specifically calls out
    IMPORTANT
    ◼ Troopers cannot be deployed on a vertical surface, neither during the Deployment Phase nor during the game.
    ◼ As long as the user is holding on to a vertical surface, he cannot declare any Skills other than Climb.
    Troopers who are Climbing or holding on to a vertical surface cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs.

    Now seeing as Page 37 relates to Ladders effectively being horizontal terrain and Page 40 relates to jump/climb orders. Page 37 says that Ladders are horizontal terrain and not vertical terrain and therefore capable of benefiting from cover if the model on a ladder is obscured by the wall at any stage to its target.

    This an accurate assessment?

    Regards,
     
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  2. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    RAW, you're right. But someone's gonna come along and say that wasn't the intention and then this thread will turn into basically the same as so many others have lately where RAW and RAI are fubar, and then we'll end up with a solution no body likes :sweat_smile::skull:
     
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  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Classic Infinity goes like this:

    1. Discover a grey area in the rules that isn't particularly clear
    2. Discuss the interaction back and forth with your group
    3. Come to a consensus on what you collectively feel is the most logical way to rule the interaction
    4. Go to a tournament and have the TO rule it the other way in your first game

    Things are at least a bit better now we have a greater amount of questions that at least get an official clarification one way or the other on a far more frequent basis, even if we don't always like the ruling.
     
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  4. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    That is indeed classic infinity. That being said. Just rules as written. I'D Grant cover because the rules specifically say treat vertical surfaces as if they were horizontal.

    However, Climbing Plus models are gonna be upset. I'd CB to just do the right thing and allow them cover.
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    C+ models only treat vertical surfaces "as if performing a normal Movement on a horizontal surface". So that's a lot narrower than what Ladders say but it is not impossible that both are to be understood as only being for movement purposes (but that leads to someone arguing that that Troopers on Stairs don't get Cover, which is... odd).

    Personally I think Ladders get cover but C+ doesn't is just what the rules say.

    I also think it's the sort of distinction that you end up forgetting mid-game.
     
    #5 inane.imp, Mar 25, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
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  6. AntipodeanBolt

    AntipodeanBolt PanOceanian Hypercorporate Delegation Secretary

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    The reason being is that climbing plus still uses the restrictions of Climb but allows you to move up those locations without a ladder. I believe climbing plus specifically states that they don’t get cover
     

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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    When on a ladder you are on a horizontal surface and all the same rules apply. This has been asked and answered before.
    When climbing using Climbing Plus or Climb you are explicitly Climbing and you can't gain Cover. As per the rules.
     
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  8. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Wasn’t one main argument for N4 to make the rules simpler :D
    Two nearly exact the same circumstances, two different rules ;P
     
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  9. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I already know about Climbing Plus people. I didn't know about about ladders and stairs having to be questioned at all. Or that ladders get cover.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    No you're not Climbing when using C+.
    You are Moving, but only Moving, as if on a horizontal surface.
    Getting Cover is not tied to Climb, it is tied to being in a vertical surface, which C+ does not dispute for anything other than Movement.

    The important bit is that Stairs and Ladders are the same thing in the rules.
    And both don't just allow you to treat them as horizontal for Movement purposes like C+.
    Instead they allow Troopers to treat them as Horizontal without restricting that to Movement and specifically ignoring restrictions you would have while climbing (i.e. losing Cover).
    C+ doesn't do that.
    Which is why Stairs and Ladders grant Cover but C+ does not.
     
  11. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Who are you directing this to, cause it doesnt seem to pertain to my comment.
     
    #11 wuji, Mar 25, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  12. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    He quoted the post, pay attention. Also "pertain".
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The skill is written a bit disorganised in English, unfortunately, meaning actually nit-picking about terminology becomes a real headache, but I think the skill explains the mechanics of it quite well and using bold in an effective manner to show what happens with Cover. I don't think using "climbing" to mean "using the Entire Order Skill Climb" is all that common, I see it a lot more typically as meaning "being or moving on a vertical surface".
    That said, you're still using the skill Climb, as that skill becomes the skill "Move".

    I don't think you can actually use movement from Dodge or Guts while on a vertical surface as a result, by the way, because neither use the Move skill. Also don't really want to get a headache thinking about what this means for coordinated orders together with units that don't have Climbing+ when they need to climb

    He's probably got me blocked. We usually don't get along very well.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can absolutely use Dodge Movement on a wall with C+.

    "Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if performing a normal Movement on a horizontal surface."

    That doesn't refer to the Move skill but rather to Movement more generally. Dodge is certainly a type of Movement as, I would argue, is Guts movement.
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Can you link the ladders one I haven't seen that.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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