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Onyx needs rework! What should it be?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Daireann, Mar 13, 2021.

  1. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    In a multi-variety regression I found MSV 2 to cost anywhere from 4-7 points. I still need to do an interaction based off of guns, it was initially removed because of bootstrapping algorithms. Though the error might be in how the data set done.
    Could the Maakrep be better, yes, is it worse at its roles then others like it, well they say comparing across factions is not possible but no. There are many models which have been left behind compared to the changes seen when they introduced Varuna and Invincible Army which both allow for a hard counter fireteam to mimitism models and camo. I have found the Maakrep BSG to be useful hunting camo but camo is still a ridiculously strong rule as it still takes orders, has no good aro option vs it and has dangers associated with getting close (mines). I find the problem to be more with the role then the model but sometimes you need to go out and do it otherwise the camo specialist of your enemies will make you loose the game.
     
  2. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    What would you all think of adding FTO options for the M, T, and/or E drones? Probably would need to have some handbrake limits on how many and where they could join fireteams but that’s some low hanging fruit to try and perk things up a bit. Any of those in a Unidron team seems reasonable and quite useful. Adding an M to our haris options would be nice as well, even if we don’t get access to the spiffy nanoscreen profile.
     
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  3. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    E drone seems great in FTO. Support(ware) the fireteam in a literal and headcount sense.

    Getting a sensor unit into the Unidron team would be cool, but the M seems to overlap with the FO Unidron and is a bit more vulnerable to hacking should it walk into a repeater net. A non-hackable FTO-type sensor unit would be awesome.
     
    #103 bloodw4ke, Mar 23, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    OCF used to be on-par with Nomads (and better than CJC) for hacking, and had to leverage that hacking to do well. Now that's not the case. Combined Army used to have unique hacking capabilities that put it on-par with Nomads and ALEPH in the hacking arena; now that's mostly not the case.

    You don't have a good idea of what makes a good hacker. WIP is secondary to BTS and access to firewalls, and OCF (which previously was defined by having hackers slanted heavily towards offense in infowar) has missed out. Sure, it can scatter repeaters everywhere, but against actual good hackers that's just going to allow your hackers to be isolated.

    The only tinbots are -3, and the Unidron one costs SWC, so your suggestions in that arena are laughable.

    Kerr-Nau with a tin bot in his team won't outcompete the hackers that he actually needs to outcompete (Interventors and Jazz).

    Given that you wanted to destroy the sectorial by removing a bunch of profiles in your earlier posts, it's clear that you don't like the sectorial to begin with and want it to be unfun to play and anemic in terms of power.
     
  5. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that it used to be on par with Nomads with the exception of CJC.

    Repeaters are placed at the end of an order so they can not ARO you through the repeater on the turn you deploy it.

    The tin bot is .5 SWC not 1, perhaps you wrote it off when you saw it was not 0 and there for you thought it did not matter. I feel it is expensive compared to all the HI tinbots which are just point increases but not overly expensive.

    What majorly changed (outside of general hacking device changes) was not the numbers of repeaters for networking but rather the evo hacker loosing the ability to brake links and Nomads getting Jazz.

    Lets do some math, Kerr-Nau is wip 14 bts 3, Jazz is wip 14 bts 6, Custodier is wip 14 bts 3, an Interventor is Wip 15 bts 9. If you have Kerr-Nau in a fire team with a .5 swc tin bot you get the fallowing Jazz is wip 11 bts 6, Custodier is wip 11 bts 3, an Interventor is Wip 12 bts 9. Now the probability of you winning the face to face has increase a good bit depending on the target.

    As for me wanting to remove profiles yes, though I think the better way of saying it is to replace profiles. The Malignos is the only profile of those that I feel Onyx would need to directly replace but you could do so with a new Sygmaa or something else. All others are to make room for other new possibilities. I do not feel you will make Onyx any stronger without adding new profiles.
     
  6. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I’m putting something in the dice calculator wrong, and please correct me if I have, but in active KN has about a 45% chance to put down Jazz vs 13% to go down himself, without any firewalls involved. That shifts to 55% v 6% if KN has a firewall. If they both have firewalls it is 30% for KN and 10% for Jazz. I’d say that’s decent, all things considered, for attacking a premium hacker in active turn. Interventor is tougher to put down for sure but at least they can’t kill you :shrug:?

    Where I think it gets tough for OCF is the reactive turn. What this leads to is having mainly an aggressive infowar game focused on killing hackers in a meta where it seems to me what you want is a reactive infowar game to slow down or penalize opponents as they go about trying to score objectives or kills.

    Outside of the trick where KN flings a pitcher across the table to force a 1 v 1 hack-off (which doesn’t even make use of the tinbot) I don’t think OCF brings a terribly scary infowar game overall but rather some good models who are also hackers.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @BrianJ Jazz is almost always behind a -6 firewall.

    @D_acolyte Put frankly, you are wrong. In N3 OCF could handle anything Nomads could bring in terms of hacking. Maestro, Sucker Punch, and Exile were all fairly unique in their capabilities. The Unidron tinbot actually helped in a way that firewalls didn't. Redrum and Maestro could actually kill Interventors.

    But given that you apparently don't know jack about how Onyx works or used to work, it's not surprising you want to tear the sectorial to shreds. Save the Sygmaa for the Sygmaa sectorial; OCF is supposed to have a cross-section of different member races of the Combined Army. If you don't like that, you don't like OCF.
     
  8. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    @Hecaton oof yea good call. I definitely agree with you that OCF doesn’t seem like top tier in hacking vs where it was in N3. I’m not sure that one thing alone would help it either. Someone getting upgraded programs? Sure don’t need anyone getting more expensive...
     
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  9. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    It's not a panacea, but I strongly believe the Unidron tinbot should be -6.
     
  10. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    @BrianJ

    Thank you. I mostly use hackers to kill other hackers and less to disrupt enemies. KN is not a dedicated hacking platform, he/she/it (does there race have a gender) is more of an hybrid model that brings a little bit into everywhere.

    @Hecaton

    Everyone lost sucker punch; it was on all HD+ in the game. In fact, most hacking devices lost an ARO that can kill their opponent. Sounds to me like your more complaining about losing your toys without looking at how things have changed in that sphere or why they changes. Maestro for instances was probably stripped away because they wanted to increase the survivability of hacker HI.

    Onyx is supposed to be the elite first contact branch of the combine army to asses if a civilization is useful and bring them into the fold.

    Let’s look at that cross sections:

    Rodoks: morat regiment with less than 50 years of activities constantly trying to prove themselves. Does not sound like an elite group by morat standards, as morats care a lot about their regiments history hence they are out to be more morat then morats as they state in the fluff. Love these guys but I feel a core of them does not compete well when making a list compared to the unidrones. I feel they do not match the fluff of Onyx.

    Suryat: full morat citizens with years of experience in war. They work well though I rarely play or see them played in Onyx. There immunity to AP is great. They can match the fluff of Onyx.

    Noctifers: To me there fluff and use are at odds; but essentially, they are yet another shasvastii sabbitor, assassin or terror unit to strike when they are unexpected. The important part here is that they are experimental soldiers for dangerous environments. Generally, if you do not see one on the field it is a rarity. I do not think that Noctifers fit for Onyx despite people taking them

    Malignos: elite infiltrators that are supposed to be designed to fight bigger and more armored enemies. Sadly this is not the case, they mostly are relegated to infiltrating button pushers though the Killer Hacker SMG can do some work on both fronts. The camo button pushers are important in every sectorial they are in and the fluff sort of works for Onyx.

    Sphinxes: This is the comination of Shasvastii military ideology. A covert ops TAG that maches that races feel, I do not think it should be in Onyx because more then any of the others I feel doing so takes away from both Onyx and the Shasvastii themes and feel.

    Most of these feel like a way to make a sectorial function or be competitive from the existing range because they had a lot they need to make to add to it already (2 umbra, 2 tags, 1 nexus, 2 sigma and the unidrons, that is 8 different profiles not including variants for them).


    So why expand the Umbra and Sygmaa. The reason to expand the Umbra is because they just work for it, they feel like heavy handed enforcer and another profile or two would not hurt to increase their role as such (especially a dedicated LT profile). The Sygmaa is because I am impatient; I do not think we will see a Sygmaa sectorial until the Tohaa are redone and I want more. In addition, parading a conquered foe is has been an age old political tool, one I could see the Ur part of the EI brain really liking. I feel with the batroid and Nexus Operative also support the feel of this is the Ur portion army enough that I would not increase them. Also I will say I am bias Umbra and Sygmaa are the most interesting thing to me in the sectorial.

    They escort an aspect diplomat as well so that could be a cool LT profile.

    You can disagree but do not think I do not care about the feel or theme of the sectorial. Though if CB where to remove it like they did with various others (Caledonia, MRRF, SP) and give me a proper Sygmaa sectorial I would probably be happy to.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @D_acolyte remember that Sucker Punch was on regular EI Hacking Devices too. So OCF lost *more* than other factions in the edition changeover. And if you're saying that they wanted HI hacking to be more survivable and got rid of Maestro... fine, but guess what, OCF doesn't have any HI hackers and had Maestro, so it's another way that OCF loses more. Essentially you're saying "I know you lost more stuff than other factions, but it doesn't matter." Guess what, it does matter in the scope of the game.

    Again, do you play OCF? Because I ran a Rodok core in my last game (Biotechvore) and was very successful with it. All of your complaints about the sectorial amount to you wanting a Sygmaa sectorial and wanting to cannibalize OCF for it. Nobody should take you seriously in that regard. You, as you stated, don't care about the theme or feel of OCF and should be called out on that.

    All of your complaints are addressed in the information that gives us the background for OCF, which you've chosen to ignore because you like Sygmaa. You want a Sygmaa sectorial, I get it. OCF isn't that.
     
  12. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying a Rodok core is bad. I am saying often it does not make the cut for me.
    As for HI hackers and Maesto, it is not a matter of what Onyx has but rather the number of them in or which will be added to the game (some examples are Knights of Santiago and Asuras for instance, PS Maesto would still leave an Asura active because of NWI will let it still act in an unconscious state).

    When did I state I do not care about the theme of Onyx, I said I do not think it current roster expresses those themes. Most of my complaints come down to wanting Onyx to be more different and explore things that have yet to be. Yes I like Sygmaa but the rest still hold true I feel the unit roster does not accurately portrays the themes and that if you want to improve Onyx you should look at adding things to the roster.
    Unlike you I have stated my bias and why I would do things instead of just complaining.

    My recommendation is stop focusing on what you lost, especially because this addition is still young. See ya.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm very aware of the situation with Maestro and NWI, as I used it extensively in N3. If the Rodok core doesn't make the cut for you, fine! But a lot of the rest of us can find uses for it.

    You made it clear that you didn't care about OCF's themes when you said that cramming more Sygmaa units in there was more important than its theme.

    I'd rather see the existing units turned into a more cohesive whole, like they were in N3.

    You've stated your bias and then gotten salty when called out on it.

    No. "Your old stuff sucks now, buy this new stuff" is not an answer I will accept. My recommendation is that you go ask CB for that Sygmaa sectorial you want instead of suggesting that they ruin OCF.
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I do need to remind that different players, meta and preferences including variants such as terrain, shape different perspectives, tactics and evaluations leading to variables in gameplay experiences.

    This leads to a previous warning, please do not throw out other peoples perspective because they do not align to yours.

    And if you do, do it in a civil manner.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's fine, I'll throw them out because they don't align to reality.
     
  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is just your experience, others varies.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's fine, and I'll say why I think my assessment is more accurate than other people's.
     
  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is all fine and well can you do it in a civil manner?
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I am.
     
  20. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Well-Known Member

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    Let's dig this out - Onyx is supposed to be a faction that focuses on light TAGs, right? If that's the case, I'd dig a unique Onyx evo hacking program - assisted fire (TAG). Would it be broken? maybe, but it would strengthen Onyx's identity more. Also, a unidron with a built-in repeater please. I think it sloowly might be time to start introducing new ideas to the game, like unique sectorial hacking programs etc

    Edit: I guess Sphinx shooting you on 17s is indeed broken. Then, maybe, as suggested before, moving the Xeodron and Overdron to REM would be more interesting?

    I know people are wary of rules bloat, but N4 has really helped to ease the understanding of skills. Plus, I don't think anyone can remeber every little detail about every faction, so having a unique program wouldn't be that much of a problem because people ask their opponents about their units anyway
     
    #120 Sharrankar, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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