So, just because Defiance had certain "issues" with folks that never did a kickstarter before (including Corvus Belli :), I figured I'd make a thread with some things CB should pretty much address right off the bat in a FAQ/ Instructions. It's just my opinion, so take it for what you paid for it... 1) The money you give on Kickstarter helps predict the amount sold so the company can judge production size. Economy of Scale means the more units they make, the cheaper the cost, so the more they can add. Thus, stretch goals add stuff when money gets moving. 2) When you pledge money on KS, that doesn't include your options. So after the campaign is done, there is a "Pledge Manager", where you select what your money will be used for. It won't open right away, and it will close before shipping. 3)If you pledge 1unit of currency, you will not contribute to the goals, because your money is not predicted, but you can add on more money later in the pledge manager to get stuff you wanted. 4) Most of the time, the pledge manager will be open for people that weren't part of the campaign, so you don't have to pledge anything. Some campaigns charge more for a Late Pledge, but Defiance didn't, so it probably doesn't matter unless currency valuation changes enough to make a difference. 5) So why pledge 1Currency? So you get notifications! You will get campaign updates and stuff like that, without having to check the pages manually. Also, it lets you post on the kickstarter. So yeah, if you want to keep up to date on things, you need to keep notifications turned on, instead of ignoring all forms of communication. So to be clear, CB makes minis. Kickstarter is a tool to crowdfund, Pledge Manager is a tool to manage your choices, and a fulfillment center (in Europe, CB, in America, Quartermaster Logistics, for Defiance) does the shipping. Shipping: Everyone needs to understand that the game will most likely be in multiple shipping waves. If there are two waves, for instance, you have the option of choosing: Single Wave: Everything you get sits in the warehouse until it's all ready to ship. So if You get products that are in wave 1 and wave 2, it gets shipped in wave 2. You get nothing in wave1. If you only get wave1 items, it gets shipped in wave 1. Split Shipping: Each wave ships on it's own. If you have Wave1 and Wave 2 items, you get the first stuff at one point, then later you get the other stuff. Split Shipping costs more to ship, that's the downside. If you want to save Currency, you get Single Wave and wait it out. This means everyone else will get stuff, and you'll have 6 or more months to wait. Split shipping doesn't usually cost double, but it might be like 60% more. For CB: Please make stretch goals value added, rather than expansions. Expansions should be unlocked behind the scenes, so we can spend more money to get more stretch goals. Having an unlock be something we need to pay for feels weird. Please be clear on the main page and in the FAQ, what will be plastic, what will be metal, and why, so there are not a thousand questions asking why folks can't get a TAG in plastic or whatever. Also, Gamefound now does campaigns as well as Pledge Manager. It won't have the same general exposure as Kickstarter, but the fans here (especially if they did Defiance) probably won't care. I don't know if it's cheaper or whatnot, but it's an option.
I would totally pledge 1 unit of currency next time, just because it actually shows shiping price in pledge manager. In my case shipping cost turned out to be the price of collectors pledge, it was a really unpleasant surprise.
Yeah, single wave shipping within EU was 60 EUR and then split-shipping was another 40 EUR. 100 EUR for shipping alone! First thing CB should do is find a more affordable way to ship this stuff to people.
yeah in general going big is the way to go for Kickstarter and split shipping is always a bad idea as for gamefound vs Kickstarter most people I know never use gamefound so using a less popular platform will not work out in CB favor as for shipping costs I hope CB does something about it knights models are a Spanish company too but they don't have such high shipping prices
Shipping should be roughly known and mentioned in the initial posting for sure, though it does increase with stretch goals and of course can vary depending on world conditions. That said, there is also an issue where shipping will sometimes include tax/tariff/whatever. Shipping into the USA doesn't have a VAT, whereas Canada does. So you can't just convert the US$ to the CA$ and call it done, so lots of companies include the VAT in the shipping fee, so you can reflect that Canada costs converted money + shipping+vat. Of course, CB is a European company, so if they base their price as including the Spanish VAT of say, 20% (made up number), then shouldn't USA get 20% off? It may seem unfair to charge various rates for different countries, but the USA also shouldn't be subsidizing the fees of a particular persons country, so it is something that should be factored in and transparent from the start, one way or the other. Split Shipping vs Single Shipment also needs to be explained to folks not used to kickstarter, so I'll add that to the OP tomorrow, because I saw that asked many times in the comment section.
VAT for sales in Spain is 21% (A, price exc. VAT, plus 21% gives B, price inc. VAT). The equivalent discount is around 17.35% (B minus ~17.35% gives A). European law changed with new year (similar to UK changes, BTW) and IIRC all transactions get VAT of customer location, irrespective where the seller is. There are more than VATs, for example customs duties, or local reshipping agency fees. And I doubt anyone is subsidizing any one else, because companies could find themselves with too many of the wrong customer kind. The typical thing is companies setting prices so changes in currency (or any other thing hitting the bottom line) give enough margin in worst case (so default and best case mean extra profit).
Honestly, I think a lot of them were just avoiding VAT until laws changed and now they need to do it. It's been coming up in a lot of kickstarters since start of the year from what I've seen, because I think there is also a part of the law that says they need to show VAT? Not positive on that part. There's an interesting article from Petersen Games that discusses things, but I didn't save the link.
Customer was paying VAT (and service fee) when asked by delivery company. Or if shipped via post and small declared price, maybe it passed without inspection. Somebody else's problem, until now. Showing VAT is from older laws, and still applies. This article? Oh, he decided to subsidize (or maybe he found after the fact, so no other way). And then he does not know how to do maths. Game sold for 100 means they have to send 15.96, not 19 if the assumed VAT is 19%. But they will have to do it per country, not 19% for everyone. Also IIRC there is a limit (150 euros?) below which the product can still be processed the old way (which in the end means customer gets angry when the courier asks no less than 10 for the "service"). I will have to read that article slowly, because it seems to be more about "tricks" (and bad math) than real solutions or even understanding how things go (not that I understand it fully). Not all products have the same VAT, and when it comes to "games", first thing I can think about is books. But you know what? Kickstarter should have less big texts talking about fluffy ideas, and offer more consulting about the issues of international business. Earn the money.
I thought VAT was usually included in the total for most products, rather than spelled out a how much you're paying? I'm sure things have changed since that post was written also. As I mentioned, there was a lot of complaints that a couple of the big guys started adding VAT on top of the kickstarter price this past year. It was amusing, there was some company based out of Ukraine, and Kickstarter doesn't allow Ukraine due to some financial whatever. So the company was listed as LA, California... Kickstarter literally gives instructions on how to set up a shell company in the USA to get around their rules for certain countries, rather than trying to work out the actual risks their "customers" face.
The "big font" number yes, but also detailed info must be provided. For example 11 in the shop page, but bill (or even small print in same page or shopping cart, depends on the company) will show 9.09, 21% and 1.81 in the right columns. Basically the law says customer must know at a glance how much they have to pay, and also how things are split. As long as KS get its fees...
it seems that KS of board game has changed a lot in the last years. With so many ks every month available a good part of the community especially the youtuber are expecting AAA/polished games from KS on the go which means: All gameplay relevant extensions visible from day 1 (even if locked) in order to assert the "all-in" price from the start Stretch goals unlocking free stuff or cosmetic paying addons (playmate, alternate sculpts,...) Playable on the go while having gorgeous miniatures (pre-assembled collored plastic or extra cardboard standies) Actual Renders and Game prototypes (send before day 1 to youtubers) PDF Rulebooks on day 1 even if not final AAA material/board stuff (Card holder, Organizer, Insert, token box, sleeves, summary cards/sheets for everything from game mechanism to scenery) A good narration or Solo/Coop/PvP Modes with clear Game Goals exposed on the campaign page. A clear manifest of what the game is and what's states it is in Defiance lacked all of those a,d would get burned on the stakes from that -even if turmoils happened during the campaign. I can't recommand you enough to look at the ruckus regarding stellaris the game: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/281647/stellaris-infinite-legacy https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/academygames/stellaris-infinite-legacy/description It's a plain 3X game from a video game licence but got burned on day 1 by Game influencer (notably king of average) because it was not delivering all the above, and because they tried to delivered information through video and livestream instead of clear Posts on the Campaign main board.
Well, that's the main problem. From the looks of it, Defiance was a Kickstarter for a pile of minis (especially the ones that didn't get a resculpt for years) with a bonus tabletop game. Once you see it that way you can look at all these poorly written rules and give it a slack. You do that - it's great. (I didn't, I was hoping to play some infinity(-ish) game with aristeia rules)
That's why I piled up some cardboard and I'm doing the job to bring the game and it's narration up to my expected standard.
But looking at how many people and how much they've pledged, it seems that all of the criticism you've mentioned doesn't really matter, as the game got kickstarted. Looks like you can still pull off to kickstart an average game, if there's a solid fan following.
