So I was under the impression that a targetless attack like a smoke grenade has to target a horizontal location on the map to try and throw smoke to it. That said, I could not find it in the wiki and now doubting myself. What rule prevents a warband to throw a smoke grenade targeting a vertical wall two inches above the ground? (For tactics like trying to apply smoke to a sniper above them but not people on ground floor or w/e)
Good question. Most deployables are represented by markers, so we know they can't be deployed on walls or in midair simply because they'd, like, physically fall down. Same way we know that you can't deploy a Trooper in midair even though the rules don't actually mention it. Smoke isn't represented by a marker. It's represented by a template, but we know you don't actually have to be able to physically place the template (otherwise smoke couldn't be thrown in a narrow alley because the template would be too wide). I would say that, in the same way that Troopers and deployables implictly can't be deployed in midair, the same applies to smoke. And if you tried to throw smoke onto a wall, you'd effectively be throwing it into midair since smoke doesn't have the Climb skill. Or, to put it another way, the rules assume that "things" of all types can only go on horizontal surfaces, except by declaring the Climb skill, and that assumption comes from the fact that the game is played in a physical space with gravity. (At least, I vaguely remember that such physical spaces used to exist, in the shadow world outside my apartment).
"Smoke Ammunition is a non-offensive ammunition, so it does not require an enemy–or, in fact, any Trooper at all–as a target, and can be thrown at any point on the table." On the table has been read throughout N3 and into N4 as meaning atop a horizontal surface.
Fun times with Stairs and Ladders: "Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface. Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement Label without needing to declare Jump or Climb, and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb. Movement distances are measured along the surface the Trooper moves along, as seen in the diagram." Either that only applies to the options mentioned thereafter and I can't Smoke Stairs which are the same as Ladders as far as rules are concerned. Or "Tropers treat Stairs and Ladders as vertical or diagonal surfaces. Fullstop." which means they count as Horizontal for all purposes and you can throw Smoke on Stairs (and also Ladders). Either way it ain't pretty and one of the following is true: 1. being unable to deploy Mines and chugg Smoke on Stairs 2. being able to deploy Mines and chugg Smoke on Ladders Fun Stuff No2: Causes issues with Combat Jump and deployment too. Might technically be permitted to land sideways or deploy on a ladder RAW. The part that should prevent this, is part of the Climb Rules: "Troopers cannot be deployed on a vertical surface, neither during the Deployment Phase nor during the game." Problem is that for troopers Ladders and Stairs are horizontal surfaces, which voids this rule.
Almost but not quite. The rules do draw a distinction between ladders and stairs; one is vertical and one is diagonal. Stairs = diagonal surface = not a vertical surface. Ladders = vertical surface. Deployment explicitly prohibited. The fact that both are “horizontally equivalent surfaces” vis a vis Troopers doesn’t make them actually horizontal, and ladders are explicitly a vertical surface. Troopers may move on them as if horizontal because of that passage in the movement rules, but may not deploy thereon because you may not deploy on a vertical surface. The rules are super hazy about diagonal surfaces, but there’s no specific prohibition against deploying on them. The question of mines or smoke on stairs is a big wtf but logically if you can deploy (place) a trooper there, it’s an acceptable surface for markers and templates. This is definitely a part of the game that could be oh so much clearer.
Wouldn't it be nice if the rules actually said that. Something along the lines of "counts as horizontal for Movement purposes". But they don't and make a blanket statement: "Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface". The rules don't say "treats as horizontal for movement purposes" The rules also don't say "horizontal equivalent". The rules say treat as horizontal. A trooper is more than able to deploy on a surface that is horizontal to him. "Troopers cannot be deployed on a vertical surface, neither during the Deployment Phase nor during the game." A Ladder is a horizontal surface to a Trooper, no problem there RAW. I'm neither encouraging Combat Jump on Ladders, nor Smoke on Ladders and have no intention to use it on the table. But this is what the rules allow atm. I'd definitely like to be able to chugg Smoke and Deployables on Stairs and Ramps (which isn't a game term anymore in N4 it seems) though.
Do you need something more specific than being a point of the GENERAL MOVEMENT RULES and the relevant section being named Move: Ladders and Stairs?
You mean less nesting rules that don't belong together and weird crosspollination effects? Like putting the rule that prevents you from deploying on a wall during Deployment into a box in the Climb Skill section? Can you find something in the rules that tells me if I can throw Smoke or Combat Jump on 30°/45°/60° Stairs (or not) and figure out why I would treat them differently than Ladders for that interaction?
The greater context of where the rule is written is completely meaningless. Specifically rules under the header of "General Movement Rules" apply in all situations regardless if a movement is involved or not, unless the rules line itself specifically restricts itself to movement only. Troopers treat stairs and ladders as horizontal surfaces, because there are no further qualifiers. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/acting-on-ladders.39147/
Guys, you are overextending something too far. These are the rules for movement. You intend to apply an exception for movement to an attack. Please, tell me why the rulebook should explain that you are not allowed to do it. The rulebook tells you what you ARE allowed to do. @Mahtamori where are General Movement Rules applied outside form of movements?
At any time you are on a ladder and do basically anything that's not strictly a movement skill. The rule enabling e.g. Dodge ARO to work while clinging to a ladder is listed in the General Movement Rules under the section Move: Ladders and Stairs, and unfortunately does so through implicit interactions rather than explicit ones as seen under Climbing Plus
Because it allows you to do something WHILE MOVING? Seriously, there are some weird point in the rules, but this is so clear that i'm really impressed by the effort you two are putting into it.
And not moving at all. While I have some concerns for what the logical implications have for other rules, it's not actually hard to follow with regards to the stairs themselves. As similar to what IJW wrote in the thread linked; the implication that you can't shoot smoke at a ladder also means you can't shoot smoke at stairs, regardless of how flat the stairs are.
&$#@. I somehow forgot about that thread entirely. So we're supposed to play that if you land smoke on a ladder, what you basically get is a half-cylinder starting at the targeted height above the table, extending upward until blocked, but not extending downward? A mined ladder sounds like an interesting, if rude, trick to play as a way of preventing enemies from peeking down from a low roof behind a trooper. Has anyone actually tried that with any success? I think for blast template placement the mine would need to be pretty close to the top of the ladder for the template to affect a rooftop target, just because of the angles involved.
I think we need a community project that's just a series of examples and diagrams of jank rules interactions to either a) help new players get the hang of unintuitive aspects of play, or b) encourage CB to clean those aspects of the rules up. Having to wade through threads to unearth various jank nuggets is no good.
Counterpoint: "stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface" [emphasis added]. So only Troopers treat the surfaces as horizontal - deployables and smoke grenades don't. Maybe.
So thinking about it, I am not a big fan of the logic that you cannot throw against a wall purely because you need to target "on the table" which has to mean a horizontal location. The biggest reason being there is no rule that I can find that directly states that. I can understand that this logically has to occur but I do not like it as a justification if my opponent is of a different mind. For instance, I am trying to find a rule that prevents pitchers being fired at a wall and deployable repeaters seem to have the same restrictions of "on the battleground" and "on the table" that smoke does. But deployable could perhaps not be allowed on walls as it uses the word "deploy" (i know, shocking) which could be what causes pitchers and drop bears and the like to not be able to be thrown or shot at a wall.
Mostly because they purported it to be official and made up answers to questions they didn't have an official answer to. Compare instead the two "How does Hacking actually work?" threads on this and the previous forum. Or my "Alice and Bob" Repeater explainers.
@inane.imp My post was mostly in jest to be honest. I don’t have a horse in the race regarding the official FAQ video with dubstep music, lol.
