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Onyx needs rework! What should it be?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Daireann, Mar 13, 2021.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yeah, I could never get into Onyx due to the theme not doing anything for me. They added a ton of cool new Ur Rationalist warbots, but then didn't let me use the Aspects that they visually and thematically match. I would be very happy to get a new sectorial that's based around Aspects, Batroids, and Umbras.
     
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  2. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK Rasyats are not actually first contact specialists. They are diplomats (in the Morat sense of he word). Also, I don't feel like Onyx needs another expensive AD unit. They already have KoDali and Fractaa.

    I suggested Sygmaa because the Onyx sectorial is where we first saw Sygmaa units. Onyx's role as a Tohaa fighting force is well established, and they seem to be the main Combined Army force that Sygmaa units participate in. It also makes sense that as they gain ground they would have access to more Sygmaa troops.

    Removing units has happened several times across the game, most especially in Combined Army. It hasn't proven to be destructive in the past, and I doubt it would in Onyx. Especially if those units were replaced by something that was more thematically appropriate and better optimized for Onyx. Players who want t play those removed units in a mishmash of Combined Army forces could of course play vanilla.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sounds like a first contact specialist to me.

    There's no reason to suspect there won't be a Sygmaa sectorial of its own at some point. We first saw Sygmaa units in Onyx because it was explicitly designed as a multi-species force. It has no special relationship with Sygmaa; the OCF fights everything, and in fact you'd see less of it against the Tohaa because that front is already established.

    They were removed from the faction as a whole, not a sectorial. Telling OCF players "nah, you can't use that Rodok fireteam you used in your last game, and that TAG that you find fun to use? You can't use that anymore" is bullshit. It's a bad move for the same reason that Uprising was a bad move.

    Rodoks and Noctifers are plenty optimized for OCF, and I get good mileage out of Malignos and the Sphinx too. I'm starting to think you just don't like OCF, because you're advocating fixing it by disassembling it and turning it into a Sygmaa sectorial.

    I assume you're against Kosmoflot, too?
     
  4. SpectralOwl

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    Onyx definitely has its own theme. I'm not into it, and it could definitely benefit from having more custom units built bespoke for Onyx instead of as a compromise with a different Sectorial (imagine Shas infiltrators and Morat gunfighters not bound by the restrictions of their respective racial armies, with armour and design in the cohesive Onyx style you see on Sygmaa, Umbra and the bots). I still wouldn't play it, as multicoloured aliens and flying Sith OCs are not my thing. It could certainly be cool to see a really out-there Sectorial of just Aspects and their supporting bots for when the EI decides to take something personally, but that is not Onyx.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The theme, as I see it, is "evil Star Trek."

    When they do the EI Aspect sectorial it should have Datz in it, since they're basically EI cultists. And, of course, a Dat haris with a Charontid would be hilarious.
     
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  6. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    I can't speak to the 'power' level of Onyx especially in N4 but the defining thing for me is that I have rarely enjoyed playing them.
    It has always felt like an uphill struggle to make them work. I want them to work as there is some cool stuff in there.
    I think its partly down to me not 'getting' the faction and how its supposed to function and also me being a pretty average player. On the whole I have more fun playing MAF though.
     
  7. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    For me, having pretty much finished painting my complet Onyx collection (bar Rodoks becase, well, they suck), the sectiorial is extremely powerful but plays pretty stiff. We have some horror-level damage dealers, nice white noise access, one of the tankiest cores in the game and lets be real, malignos MLs.

    Our hacking game didn't translate very well to N4 which is a blow, because it made Onyx way more interesting. Our specialist game is super poor. Our CC is limited to the expensive Umbra units. All of which is to say Onyx aren't really doing it for me on the table, not because they're weak - because I'd argue they can absolutely bully a lot of opponents - but because their playstyle is all about doorkickers now. They feel a little left behind in terms of toys, and that's a shame.

    As for changes to the roster, I'd love to see a lesser Aspect cross over to Onyx.
     
  8. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I believe we already touched this idea in the past, but I'll bring it up here again:

    Onxy should get their exclusive Diplomat style S2 Aspect LT. The Pneumarch is a perfect model for that and Mnemonica would solve the LT vulnerability issue. Make him command-focused to keep the price low and give him some comms weaponry to leverage that high WP.
     
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  9. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    The first and may be good option for a fast help to Onyx would be small fixes for already existing units.

    Not adding new (for now), not removing units (removing is a bad thing. No one wants to loose miniatures. Especially if they were bought. “But you can proxy” isn’t an option.)

    So? Let’s sum up the things in this direction?
     
  10. El tito Zylito

    El tito Zylito Active Member

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    yes, now both are expensive as hell :joy::joy:
     
  11. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    I think you should try to play Onyx before you will try to change their units. Also I don't think Onyx units really need change.

    You cannot change Morats units in Onyx wihout considering their existence in MAF. Also I think Suryats are very good right now. Only think I would like to see for them is possibillity to add Umbra into their haris. Rodoks are worse than they were, but I think they can be still very useful.

    Same can be said about Shas units. Also all 3 units are already very good.

    Unidrons don't need any change. CB buffed them via changes to REMs.

    Xeodrons are right now very effective attack piece and they work very well even as solo units or as part of haris. Wildcard for them is nonsence IMHO.

    Overdron is also fine. IMHO drop of his cost and change to his ability to dodge helped him very well.

    UMBRA: personally I think they are fine. They are hard to use, but when used correctly they can do tons of work

    Nexus imho also don't need any change.

    Fractaa - I don't see many paratroopers with 2 wounds in the game and she is relatively cheap for it.

    Maakreps really only need fireteam option to make them more viable.

    If anything Onyx needs more options to play and a way to enable some of their already existing options (Maakreps, aggressive Lts).

    Chain of Command - CB already is giving this skill like a piece of candy to armies that really don't need it (Shas for example) and for Onyx it would be imho game changer.

    Another core fireteam option - for example new Urkherit unit or even another REM unit

    REM driver - but CB needs to be careful, because of the Q - drone, which is already strong piece and REM Driver could make it even better.

    Cheap skirmisher with mines and minelayer skill to defend our expensive units.

    I don't say we need all of these, but things like these would be nice to add to Onyx and if sectorial army like Corregidor can have tons of new options Onyx could have also some new toys to open new posibilities in list building.
     
    #51 Melkhior, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
  12. Morray

    Morray Well-Known Member

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    Sheesh guys don't be so negative, Onyx are top tier IMHO

    Ok, unique programmes include Oblivion, total control+1 & Trinity on a standard hacking device.

    Well If I'm going second, I will usually use two Unidrons on either side of a position to cover the more expensive models I have in the Core, both FO, that way they use flash pulse at longe range, or the PC at short, then they can go dogged if you lose. They're a right good speed bump, and the added fact we can now go prone is an insane buff.

    I never use the sniper out in the open as an ARO piece turn1, that just wont work and not that many factions can pull that off either, so don't lose sleep over it.

    In active, you put assisted fire on the sniper and go to town, use explosive ammo, so the opp can't make use of the cover save. That does a very tasty job of killing any one silly enough to be out in the open.

    Other offensive tools I enjoy. Ko-Dali again using EVO jump, land in the back line (Yes jumping in, grow a pair aie! haha) And just do some sweet work on the cheer leaders.

    Now If neither of these two work in a game, you're probably left with two hackers in your list, the doc, a bunch of unidrons and what ever else you've decided to bring. I usually take a bunch of other troops I can latch onto the core if a few go down, so do this and steam roll up the middle, the Plas Carbine is a complete beast in the the core, give the fella AF again and it can wreck a lot of dudes.

    There are a lot of ways to play Onyx, it sounds like some of you need to stop belly aching and get on TTS, I'm free for some games if any one wants to hang (Morrayz on steam)
     
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  13. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    Ok!
    Give me that, and I would be fine)
     
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  14. BrianJ

    BrianJ Well-Known Member

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    I would generally agree that most units in the sectorial don’t need changing (legates and maakreps being notable exceptions) but when you bring them together as a faction things are missing.

    Sectorials are designed to have weaknesses, to be sure, but the list of weaknesses within OCF is long and the list of advantages is short. This is why the discussion has noted a few times that choosing OCF over vanilla CA is a tough sell.

    The addition of sectorial specific profile options, new troopers, and/or adapting the fireteam composition options are reasonable ways to address this. The main goals being to encourage greater list variety and mitigate some of the many weaknesses in the sectorial so as to make the strengths over vanilla feel more “worth it”.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    None of which help you the way that Trinity -3 or Trinity (AP) does. And let's keep in mind we lost Exile and Overclock in the changeover.



    Oh man, that WIP 12 Flash pulse with no fireteam bonuses (because it's a technical weapon)... such stopping power. Have you played much N4, honestly?

    "Just use Assisted Fire." That's day 1 stuff. I'm talking about playing against people who know what they're doing.

    It's harder for her to gain wounds than you'd think, since she can't CDG people to gain them. Better off using a Fraacta at that point.

    I've been playing them quite a bit on TTS, and OCF is incredibly lackluster compared to how they were in N3. It sounds like you were never pushing the sectorial to its limit in N3 and are saying that it's balanced because otherwise you'd have to do the mental work of criticizing the way the game is set up.
     
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  16. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    I know that feeling. I had an entire Xeodron Haris get wiped off the board by a single fusilier in three orders of shooting. 1st order the fusilier hit my samaritan three times. Failed all armor saves dead. All AROs missed.
    Second order, he hit one of my Xeos three times...failed all three saves. Dead.
    Third order, exact same thing.
    I never played Onyx again after that.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that seems very improbable given a basic combi rifle trooper. Maybe give it another shot and see if you get less unlucky?

    Edit: It has been brought to my attention that I may have overlooked some obvious sarcasm. Please carry on.
     
    #57 toadchild, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm fairly certain it's not meant to be taken seriously; it's facetious trolling.
     
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  19. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    I agree they're a great solo piece. I would strongly consider playing a 3x Xeo Haris. As-is, having to put them into a haris via a Samaritan is a huge tax since Samaritans are so expensive. It feels bad not to take the hacker specialist option on the Samaritan given that cost, but he's just going to die to Trinity (I mostly play vs. Nomads / CJC).

    On Xeo wildcard, is it really that crazy? Rudras and Vostoks have it.
    • Shooting-wise, vs. both the Xeo is up +1 BS, but cannot get assisted fire. Xeo gets +1 dam over the Rudras but the Vostok FTO gets +1 dam on the FTO
    • Rudras has identical weapon loadouts Vostok FTO only has a MK12 option
    • Vs. both Xeo is up +1 STR
    • Armor-wise he's got bioimm but his 5/6 is only marginally better than 4/6 (Rudra) or 3/6 AP immune (Vostok) - the latter also getting Mim-6.
    • Xeo averages 13.3pts more than the Rudra and 9 pts more than the Vostok
    • Xeo gets Tac Aware and super-jump; other two are faster and have climbing plus.
    The STR and tac aware seem like the most significant improvements, but you're paying the difference. Seems like light TAGs are part of the Onyx identity now, so putting one into a Unidron link would fit with that, without being busted*.

    Oh, also both of the REMs can have a dang engineer in the link with them.

    *Or you concede that the REM wildcards are busted, also fine :)
     
    #59 bloodw4ke, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  20. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Oh no, i am dead serious. It was a friendly game and my haris died from a single fuslier in three orders. He passed every FTF and hit all three times and I failed all three armor saves all three times.
    Trust me, I wish I was joking.
    edit: I'm notorious for having the worst dice in my meta.
     
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