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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not saying it's hard to make a TAG list, no siree, just saying that building a good hacking complement to a list is fairly easy for a somewhat large number of factions ;)
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Largely because I think it's bad either way.

    I don't like the LOL mechanic and assassination play because it can completely ruin a game in a roll.
     
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  3. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    Amen to that.
    But I'd rather solve it by giving everyone a meaningful anti-LoL option or decreasing (even further) the penalties of LoL. If a Nomad (or any other hacking force) can't Oblivion an obvious Lt, why can someone assassinate the obvious Lt or spec fire from Emily or Squalo.
     
    #623 Rejnhard, Mar 15, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Ways to solve the possible unfair advantage might be making pitchers harder to put (loosing fireteam bonuses). The problem is that it can backfire, just a single nerf too big can make hacking as useful as in n3 in an edition where HI and TAGs are more present

    Because putting marked status (against those non hackable objectives), is as problematic as putting wounds or dead status... You ignore half the conversation on purpose but I am the one dishonest here?

    my point is that if the hacker can do all the thinks are being told is becuse all of the support from other units it gets, which is a huge investment. If we are going to compare "only" the hacker cost without that investment, then he is not able to do all of that. And that should be clear when looking at other factions when they plan to hack and all the support they have to bring. The less support in number of troops, the more order expenditure needed. The tag would need its support too, and we can discuss how much of it is needed or is enough for each case
     
  5. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Marking people thru a Repeater/Pitcher is as hard as wounding a toon. Kk, I'm done arguing with you.
     
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  6. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    Thank you for bringing this up. I think this is the primary issue people have been discussing in this thread, if indirectly - methods of attack that seem to be more than appropriately skewed. The most egregious is Guided perhaps since there is literally zero risk but units like a B6 active turn monster, or a hacker that is more or less unassailable, also fall into this category.

    Example: A BS12 guy who flanks another BS12 guy and gets the sweet spot range band with his combi has about a 60% chance to wound the other guy (he has cover opponent does not). This is kind of the baseline interaction for what a "good roll" is supposed to look like (no vis mods or anything on either side just active vs reactive, maneuver to make it happen).
     
  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    If any change were to happen to pitchers this would be it, as no one really cares about a B1 pitcher on a BS10-11 nerd operating solo, as they will actually need to move into a position to use it as opposed to just punting it down range at B2 and 14s.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well... except on Bit+Kiss... 58% to put a pitcher up to 40" away isn't bad odds for a single order. And a Tsyklon or Druze at 45% isn't too bad.
     
  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Bit and Kiss are characters, let them do dumb weird shit, as for the other two they are expensive 1w models, and 1B on 12's is fine, they need to be a fair way up the table to make use of the +3 band.

    Though thinking about it a bit more I would probably give pitchers a max range of 24" or 32".
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    +3 0-8, 0 8-16, -3 16-24, -6 24-32?
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The X-Visor pitchers are still hacking opponent's DZ on 60-45% success rate. If you make more changes so hacking AROs are more viable, maybe it's ok, but if taking away pitcher link bonuses is all we're doing then I cut them to 16" max.

    Should point out the more you nerf these things the easier it is to justify them spreading to more units including high end units to make it easier for Nomads or Druze to spread a hacking net without being granted the ability to immediately intrude into your opponent's DZ. If you cut the range to 16", giving a Kriza or a Szally a pitcher to 1800-dial-a-NERD seems more reasonable.
     
    #631 Triumph, Mar 16, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
  12. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Pretty much.

    Unless you start handing them out like crazy, you are pretty much going to kill offensive hacking for a lot of factions. which is why I suggested either 24 OR 32, which unless its firing in a straight parallel line across the table its not reaching the DZ and if you pull back it wont touch you, and thats before taking in to account the pitchers deployment the Druze is probably hanging back a bit a more from the DZ line as its link filler and the tsyklon will be wherever has the best cover and standard fire lines so it can also leverage the Feuerbach. Also there are only 2 xvisor + pitcher models in the game.


    these pieces never want to operating in the 16 band so its kind of a waste on them, in the same way the repeater is a waste on the iguana.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    AP Spitfire Iggy when?

    But to address the topic.

    Mostly it's not about eliminating the strategy but making it far rarer and less efficient: if I need a Tsyklon or Druze to effectively pull it off then we get much closer to a situation where everyone can agree that building a top tier Hacking list IS as harder or harder than building a top tier TAG list. ;)

    At disposable 2 with 2 x 55% chances to stick a Repeater at 16" it makes using them to efficiently attack DZ pieces harder while still allowing them to have a reasonable threat range for anything that's pushed out of the DZ. Fundamentally I don't like a hard stop on ranges because it means that you go from a 55% to 0% chance in a single <1" error, which isn't fun.
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Tsyklons can FD+4, and if you're planning to alpha the fuck out of your opponent you're not deploying to hang back.

    Yes the point would be to hand them out like crack, make it super easy to deploy a repeater network sideways and rather than forwards and maintain the network as your opponent knocks out repeaters. Wide network is good, deep network leads to turn 1 hacking murdering/bricking shit before the opponent can do something.

    It's not a waste. The idea isn't give the unit a pitcher just so it can assfuck someone, it's give the unit a pitcher so it can place it accurately in key spots as it pushes up the table. Kriza can shoot some guy off an objective, then also fart a repeater into a good position on high BS to cover the objective. Or do you spot a good choke point to lay down a repeater to protect your unit from a Knight running up on it? Drop a repeater down on it. Playing into MO? Drop a repeater at your feet to try keep knights away etc.

    They would also be the candidate units to fight their way to the middle of the table, then place a pitcher in your opponent's DZ.

    This part specifically needs addressing. You're not talking about a 24 or 32 inch range. You are talking about a 32 or 40 inch range. If you stand in the middle of your DZ and measure 32 or 40" around it. That, assuming lines of fire to place the pitcher, is your threat projection for hacking and it's fucking enormous.

    I laughed at the N4 range nerf to pitchers as being useless, this wouldn't be that much better.
     
    #634 Triumph, Mar 16, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That offensive hacking you're talking about is kind of the problem, though, particularly how there's so many factions that just don't.

    There is a lot to unpack here.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's not enough for some players, they want hacking to be safer and more effective than that. Which is a problem, because it makes hacking the best way to approach, hands down.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    And you keep ignoring that Hacking is very rarely the most effecient way to put a trooper into a Null state. It's almost always Hacking + something else (usually Guided at the moment).

    This is what justifies Hacking being relatively safe. Hacking can't kill anyone.

    What I've been arguing is - where there are problems with Hacking - don't make Hacking less safe, make it less efficient. This reflects the fact that, other than vs TAGs which have the vulnerability priced in, Hacking is not itself an existential threat: it enables other pieces.

    It's also worth noting that part of the reason active turn Hacking has increased in popularity in N4 is because of the expansion of the number of hard AROs that are extremely inefficient to overcome in an FTF (unless you have access to truly top tier DZ-DZ gunfighters)*. There's several factions that can - more easily than in N3 - find themselves in a situation where they struggle to fight their way out of the DZ. Hacking, both with and without Guided, provides one solution to this problem.

    * But what about Kriza and Salzy you say. Yes certain Vanilla/TJC builds can overcome this ARO problem with those units. That doesn't change the driver for aggressive Hacking in lists that don't have troops of that calibre.
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    But I thought the main purpose of said repeater was to setup an easy White Noise? :(
     
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  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Pretty much the ONLY use, and that's before you realise you have other repeaters you could WN through and that you should be using a gecko instead of that paperweight.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Ok, for this, I assume you're excluding KHDs. Of course it's "hacking + something else," since there aren't lethal programs on regular HDs. But that something else is so reliant on hacking it might as well be a hacking program of its own.

    Nah, I'm very much invested in hacking being less safe. Guided is basically risk-free, so the setup for Guided should be more dangerous than it is.

    Maybe. Except you can either smoke grenade or white noise trick to bypass all of these ARO pieces - I think the defining characteristic of these hacking tricks is that they're incredibly safe, and players of games like this gravitate towards safe, reliable options that remove the randomness aspect of the game. It is, however, the designers' job to get rid of crutches like that to keep the game interesting.
     
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