1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hidden Deployment and Tactical Awareness

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WWHSD, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    79
    Yesterday’s FAQ had a bit that keeps a model who is brought on to the table via Airborne deployment during the Impetuous phase or with a Coordinated Order from receiving orders they would have generated.

    Does the logic behind this also extend to things like Hidden Deployment and Tactical Awareness? I would assumed that any model that is not represented on the table by a model or marker (and not in a null state) when the Order Pool is generated, would not generate orders if brought onto the table later. They can use orders they would have generated to bring them onto the table, but generate no additional orders.

    This appears like it should affect models like the Cutter and the Sphinx that have Tactical Awareness if they use their Hidden Deployment abilities.

    Am I thinking about this correctly or is there some reason Hidden Deployment should be treated differently that Airborne Deployment in light of this ruling?
     
    inane.imp likes this.
  2. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    622
    well, it was even before FAQ. Rules states, that TA order not generated if owner model not on the table. you just cant place the TA order next to the model as rules demands.
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    To expand on what JoKeR said, here's the text from the Skill:
    • During the Order Count step, if the user is on the game table as a Model or Marker, the player will place an Irregular Order beside the user.
    A Trooper in Hidden Deployment or off-table via Airborne Deployment is not 'on the game table as a Model or Marker'.
     
    inane.imp, Lawson, Xeurian and 2 others like this.
  4. kenjiro2k5

    kenjiro2k5 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    26
    Hi Ian,
    we had this very same discussion comin up just today.
    A fellow player argued that the very line you quoted just refers to where the TA-Order is put down, not wether it is generated or not.
    I think RAI is it's not generated, but RAW he's got a point.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Well, there's a few more obstacles to this than the one IJW mentioned.

    For example, as part of Hidden Deployment:
    While in Hidden Deployment State, the Trooper will not add their Order to the Order Pool during the Tactical Phase. They can only use this Order themselves, when placing the Trooper on the gaming table during the Active Turn.
    My interpretation of this is that if the order is indeed still generated, it will still be lost when the trooper is put on the table because the trooper's own order can only be used when putting the trooper on the table (adding said trooper to a coordinated order will lose you their own order it says further down on Hidden Deployment State page).
    For what it's worth, Combat Jump has the same rule.
     
  6. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    118
    Boy I am glad this question was brought back up today or I would have. I was just watching the MO battle report and they ended up using the Sphinx's TA order to yank it out of camo. Thought I was missing something for a moment.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  7. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    My favorite part is where the Knight of Montesa chooses to fail Guts in order to fail LoF from the Sphinx.

    Because, as we all know, Religious Troop is a completely optional skill.
     
    Stampysaur and Hecaton like this.
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    I would love for it to be clarified otherwise, as that would un-nerf Yuan Yuans (but also Duroc).

    I wonder if there's a disconnect between what's in the FAQ and how CB plays/tests their own game.
     
  9. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    There is 100% a disconnect between the rules and how CB plays their game.

    The best (and most obvious) example is to look at the book's example for Super-Jump (or even the example for Jump). Performing basic math tells you that the shown example is 100% impossible and that Super-Jump with only 4" (10 cm) move is functionally useless, yet the examples show how it's SUPPOSED to work (ditto for the Protheion + Coup de Grace example).

    It's pretty common for game designers to come up with an idea on how the game should work, but then struggle to put that idea onto paper. Warmachine Mk1 was a fantastic example of this, with dozens of rules that were functionally the same and some interactions that could either create an infinite loop or just flat-out broke the game.

    They somewhat improved it in Mk2 by making "functionally identical" rules the same, but it wasn't until the entire dev team sat down for Mk3 with the explicit intention of making RAW == RAI that the rules truly became solid. It's honestly impressive how little wiggle-room there is for Rules Lawyers to exploit in the Mark 3 rules. Meanwhile Warhammer has gone BACKWARDS in this regard, taking rules such as "Objective Secured" and giving every single faction their own version which is the EXACT SAME THING, unnecessarily bloating the rules.

    Going from Warmachine Mk3 to Infinity N3 was like going from a nice warm hot tub and jumping into an ice bath. And N4, while better, still has some issues. I love CB and I love Infinity, but some rules still need a serious refactoring. Things like Stealth being worded really weirdly, to Super-Jump being barely functional, to the absolute lore atrocity that is the N4 Phero-booster...

    Some rules aren't even grouped together well; relevant interactions are spread out all over the rulebook, with some conditions requiring quite a bit of page flipping to find. For example: let's say you are looking at a Light Rocket Launcher; looking up the Trait "Impact Template (Circular)" doesn't mention ignoring the Damage Reduction from Cover. It directs you to the section on Templates, but is it listed in the box titled "AREA OF EFFECT OF TEMPLATE WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT," which lists all the other effects of Template Weapons? Nope!

    Instead, it mentions it in a tiny "Important!" red box BELOW that box. Someone quickly skimming the rules, looking for how the weapon works might not even notice it (even after reading it several times). And that's not the only example. Reset, for example, mentions cancelling the Immobilized-B and Targetted state, but not Isolated. There's even (at least) one way to cancel the Camouflage (or Impersonation) state that isn't listed in the cancellation conditions in the Camouflage (or Impersonation) rules!

    Now don't get me wrong; editing, proofreading, and consolidating is difficult work, especially since CB uses Spanish first and then translates it into English later on. But it's definitely contributed to a good deal of confusion when trying to teach some newer players the game (the example with the Rocket Launcher, for example, took me a good 5 minutes to find, even though I KNEW it was a rule and therefore had to be SOMEWHERE in the book).

    I do find the N4 rules a HUGE improvement over the N3 rules, particularly with the removal of nested rules and the concentrated effort to make certain bonuses/penalties more explicit (such as putting "Dodge (PH=X)" on TAG profiles). IJW, HellLois, etc. have done a fantastic job of smoothing out the whole thing. Hopefully by the time we get "N4HS" or N5 or whatever is next it'll be even cleaner. And they're certainly doing a better job than either 40k or DnD or even Magic the Gathering recently.

    ... anyways that's my rules-writing rant.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    What did they do with the Sphinx's regular order?
     
  11. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2019
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    376
    So I had wrong impresion that they deployed Sphinx as camo and generated TA and regular order normaly. Now this is confusing as hell. But on the other side TA isnt actually and order and it doesnt go into order pool so maybe it is supposed to get generated but hidden, hense te mention that it doesnt get placed. Mom help, Im confused :/
     
  12. radka

    radka Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    21
    It would be nice if Hidden Deployment and Combat Jump could have their text clarified because they read to me to only be considering the case of a trooper having a single regular order. When irregular orders are involved I think the text for irregular orders and the remember box made a strong case that irregular orders would be kept and usable by the trooper, and that's the way IJW suggested it played in the AD thread before the FAQ ruling.

    irregular.png
    remember.png
     
  13. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    118
    just put it straight into the order pool at the start of the turn.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Okay, so had to watch the video myself and yeah they did mangle the order handling of both orders quite badly (besides characteristically making really poor plays and positioning). Also didn't fake the Black Friar's Discover roll correctly, think they accidentally used the Albedo profile for that (target value for Discover would be 4 if they're also in the 8-16" range band or a 7 with the rocket would've missed)
     
  15. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    118
    yea the more I critique it the more get confused/annoyed. Then I remember this "battle report" should be treated more as propaganda for MO to sell the set.

    kind of wish rules were a little more accurate during these so new players don't get confused. Otherwise I can ignore it more as an ad.
     
  16. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    That really shouldn't be happening though. I've stopped watching CB play their own game not to confuse myself with all the mistakes.
     
    xagroth, inane.imp, Hecaton and 2 others like this.
  17. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    118
    After this one I am in the same boat.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam and Hecaton like this.
  18. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
    CB Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,537
    Likes Received:
    4,137
    The rule state this:
    • During the Order Count step, if the user is on the game table as a Model or Marker, the player will place an Irregular Order beside the user.
    So, if the trooper is in Hidden Deployment it cant use the Tactical Awareness order.
     
    #18 HellLois, Mar 15, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Aight. Was it intentional Hidden Deployment would have negative synergy with Tactical Awareness? Ditto for Combat Jump/Parachutist and being Impetuous.
     
    #19 Hecaton, Mar 18, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Combat Jump doesn't negatively synergise with irregular. Irregular troopers do not need to place their order on the table the same way that a Tactical Awareness order does, it functions a lot closer to a regular order with the primary exception that it's not placed in the order pool.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation