Timing of Strategos/Command Tokens for Reserved Models

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by Methuselah, Mar 9, 2021.

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  1. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    When do you announce that you're using Strategos to reserve an extra model? Is it after you deploy all but your two reserved models or is it when you're deploying the two reserved models? Does it depend on when the model with Strategos is deployed?

    Similarly, when do you announce the Strategic Use of Command Tokens to reserve an extra model?
     
  2. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    You announce and spend command token during your deployment, aka during the first step where you're placing models.

    You spend the command token, announce that you're holding back two models, and then your opponent proceeds with their deployment.

    I'm less sure about Strategos, but I assume it's similar as Strategos is not Private Information.
     
  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Command token I'd say you have to announce it during your deployment. Doesn't matter if you wait until the end of your main deployment since your opponent doesn't have any decisions to make before then anyway. But if you didn't have to announce it, you'd have to instead announce "one of my command tokens just disappeared for no apparent reason," which would be weird.

    For Strategos, some discussion here though no resolution: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/is-number-of-reserve-troops-open-information.38297/
     
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  4. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    That thread seems to indicate, quite clearly, that you must announce that you have two units in Reserve before your opponent performs their next step UNLESS you hold your Strategos Lt back as one of the two.
     
  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    One person expressed that opinion in the thread, but it's hardly conclusive. The counter-argument would be that although the existence of Strategos isn't open info until the lt is deployed, the number of reserve models you have may be open info in its own right.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Also given how IJW reasoned around the use of Stealth for Marker state troopers, I'd personally assume that actually using Strategos would be open information the moment you use it.
     
  7. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    Devils advocate: Both the Strategic Use of Command Tokens and Srategos reference Deployment, but not a specific time in deployment (e.g. before you reserve models). Couldn't you flip the command token when you deploy the extra reserved model or similarly, announce Srategos when you deploy the extra reserve model? Both would still be in the Deployment Phase.

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  8. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    For Command Token usage, it specifies "... during his Deployment," which seems to be step 1 of the Deployment Phase (Player One's Deployment).

    Strategos is much less clear, unfortunately, so it'd be nice if CB could step in and clarify.
     
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  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I would say no, because the command token usage rule says that you use it to "set aside" an extra trooper. If you don't spend it during your initial deployment, you have to deploy everyone except your one allowed set-aside (and drop troops which have a specific exemption in their rule).

    Likewise, Strategos lets you "set aside" an extra trooper so I think it's clear that it happens during your initial deployment.

    I think it's less clear whether you have to announce the use of Strategos at all. @Mahtamori makes a good point about @ijw's rulings - but I think there was also a thread about the use of NCO by a camo token, where @ijw suggested that deployment skills aren't the same as order-using skills. And the subsequent FAQ arguably cements the idea that you have to announce the use of a skill specifically when using it as part of your order expenditure. Unfortunately I tried to search for the NCO thread and couldn't find it :-(

    But if you have to announce the use of strategos, then I think it would have to be announced in the initial deployment phase when the extra trooper is set aside.
     
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  10. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    Deleted
     
    #10 Methuselah, Mar 10, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the question effectively "is the status of set aside troops Open Information? If so, when?"

    IE Is my opponent obliged to inform me how many Troops they have set aside at the end of the initial deployment step?

    A: Yes - because it's not Private Information and the action is taken during the Initial Deployment step.

    Doesn't that effectively provide all the information needed by an informed opponent?
     
  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    That's how I framed my initial question, but @Mahtamori raised another valid question. So I think it's really two questions:

    A) Is the number of troopers set aside open information?
    B) Is the use of Strategos to set aside an extra trooper an action that must be declared?

    If either A or B is true, then you have to tell your opponent everything that matters. If both A and B are false, then you don't, and they only find out when you deploy two troopers in your reserve deployment phase (and one of them has Strategos; otherwise they would have already known when they saw a Strategos trooper already on the table).
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Having framed it that way, I think I'm now leaning towards:

    A) No. Open Information refers to information about troopers on your army list, except those that aren't yet on the table. The number of troopers not yet on the table isn't open information. (If it were, then if I deploy first, during my deployment I could ask you how many troopers are in your list and you would have to tell me.)

    B) Yes. Spending a command token to "set aside" an extra trooper is clearly an action that must be declared. Using Strategos to "set aside" an extra trooper does the exact same thing, so it follows that doing so is also an action that must be declared.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Re: A) which is why I think it's a question of timing. The point at which you make the decision to set aside 1 or 2 or 3 troopers is when it becomes Open Information. Prior to that point no decision has been fixed.

    Which is why I say "at the end of the Initial Deployment step" it is. Because at that point the information has become fixed.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The reason why I'm confident that the use of Strategos should be open info is that it is not a deployment skill like Minelayer or Infiltration; just like NCO or Stealth, it is an Automatic (optional) skill.
     
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  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Although I still think you're probably right, it's worth pointing out the counterargument. Here's the FAQ entry:

    Q: Which Automatic Skills or Equipment have to be declared when in a Marker State?

    A: Automatic Skills and Equipment that alter how an Order activates a Trooper, or restrict AROs, must be declared when used in Marker State. For example using NCO to spend the Lieutenant Special Order, or using Stealth

    Here we're talking about an Automatic Skill being used by a unit that isn't yet on the table, not one that's in marker state. Still, it seems like a similar scenario - the skill is being used by a unit that the opponent can't see. So arguably the FAQ entry applies to this situation, and if it does, then: the Automatic Skill doesn't alter how an Order activates a Trooper, and doesn't restrict AROs, so its use doesn't have to be declared.
     
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  17. Zhōu Yú

    Zhōu Yú Member

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    BTW. it's possibly should be a separate topic, but, at what moment you get to know how many Command Tokens does opponent have?
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We've had a topic on that recently; I'm not sure anyone able to make an authoritative answer replied to it, but here's my answer;
    We don't know, but it seems like it becomes open information when both players are making LT rolls.
     
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