I had a situation in my game last night where I had a Tuareg Assault Hacker declare an entire order to enter TO camo token state while he was out of sight of the enemy. My opponent then revealed a hidden Ninja Killer Hacker out of line of sight but it was within 8" zone of control. We played it that it cancelled (and wasted) the order of the Tuareg and he was then subjected to a hacking attack from the ARO of the Ninja on normal rolls. Is this correct? The rules talk about revealing a hidden marker with line of sight to the active model cancelling the action, but in this case there was never any line of sight.
At first glace, I would agree with you with one small caveat. From the looks of things on the old forums, it's not quite clear whether the hack cancels the camo, since the recamo happens at the effects stage, which is also when the ARM/BTS rolls to drop you out would happen. There didn't seem to be much consensus on the last thread about this, but a slight majority seemed to think that you would still go into the camouflaged state at the end of the order unless you went unconscious. The rationale was that the wording strongly suggested you needed to already be in the camo state for the ARM/BTS roll to knock you out. The problem I see with that is that we have simultaneous events during this phase where one cancels the other. Since there is no order to these events, you are simultaneously going into the camo state and taking a BTS roll. That, to me anyway, means that the BTS roll would cancel your camo state, since you went into that state at the same time you rolled for BTS. Note, of course, that none of this matters if the hack fails. You are free to stay camo'd in that case as you never take a BTS roll.
Ok, First of all: You declare "I spend a Regular Order in my Tuareg Hacker" (I love the medic much more, thank you, but to each its own). THEN, and only then, your opponent places a TO Camo marker, which is out of LoF of the Tuareg, thus being obvious is a hacker of some kind. Now, you HAVE to spend your order, but remember, having Camouflage as gear grants Stealth. This allows you to perform short movement orders and cautious movement orders without generating ARO; you cannot, however, recloack (since it's a long order not classified as short/cautious movement). You can also declare Idle, of course, and not generate ARO (worst case, you "move 0.0001'' here and the same back"). So, your enemy revealed his TO, and you move your Tuareg up to 20cm away, so outside hacking area. Unless the Tuareg was totally pinned, or there was a really juicy hacking target there the Ninja was protecting, I'd say you got the upper hand there!
n her Active Turn, a player wants one of her models with the CH: Camouflage Special Skill to return to the Camouflaged state. She confirms that there aren't any enemy models or Markers with LoF to the trooper, and spends one Order to cloak him into a Camouflage Marker. Her opponent knows he has a trooper in Hidden Deployment who would have LoFto the active trooper. However, as the Hidden Deployment trooper is not on the table either as a model or as a Marker, he cannot disrupt the active trooper's declaration of regaining the Camouflaged state. Once the Entire Order has been declared, the Hidden Deployment trooper nevertheless has the chance to reveal himself and declare an ARO, disrupting the execution of the Order - it cannot be carried out if it fails to comply with its Requirements — and making the active trooper lose his Order as it then becomes illegal. Additionally, if the trooper in Hidden Deployment were to declare an Attack as his ARO, he would make a Normal Roll. According to this: He declare the order: recamo (entire order) The ninja cant stop this, because no LOF and not even on the table, so the target at the res. Part of the order turns into camo state. But the tuareg hackable, so it will be a free normal roll for the ninja. If the ninja hits, the tuareg must roll a bts which will force him out of camo state, ofc if he survives.
Yes, it's one of those cases where the rules interact strangely. I disagree, however, in the exact sequence of events: I think the Ninja has get out of Hidden Deployment between the "I Activate the Tuareg" and the "Full Order: recamo", since you need to be on the table to be able to declare ARO.
Not quite. You declare that you're spending an Order on the Tuarag. At this point no AROs have been generated. You declare the Entire Order of recamouflaging. An ARO has now been triggered and the Ninja declares a Hacking Program, which also reveals it as a model so you place the model on the table. Not that it makes any difference to the original question, but at no point will the Ninja appear as a TO Camo marker in this example.
You are correct, I was misremembering the ARO + Hidden Delpoymet FAQ 1.2; the right order would be "Tuareg declares long order and goes into marker, the Ninja blast her brains for free directly, with no placing of TO marker".
So with this all settled how does it interact with Cautious Move and Hidden Deployment? Say a model declares an entire order "Cautious Move" where he/she begins and ends out of line of sight. However, there is a TO camo marker in hidden deployment who see's the active model at the end of his/her move. The reactive player activates their model and reveals the TO marker making the cautious move invalid and all other models who may have seen the model now all get free shots?
It doesn't, that's a different situation. As per the yellow boxout under Cautious Movement: REMEMBER Troops in Hidden Deployment are neither figures nor Markers, so they cannot react to a Cautious Movement even if they have LoF.
Entering Camo and taking BTS roll should be simultaneous and should not interfere with each other (much like how declaring Deployable Repeater when attacked by an E/Mitter does not affect whether a Deployable Repeater is deployed or not) unless the Tuareg enters unconscious or dead states (in which case Automatic skills like Camouflage cease functioning).
Why is Unconscious state going to cancel the Camouflaged state? The Special Skill Camouflage lets you enter the Camouflaged state but staying in the state isn't dependant on the Skill.
That's a good point... but it seems we are still unresolved as to whether the BTS roll of a hacking attack on a trooper attempting to go into the camo state cancels that or not. ...right?
@Sabin76 No, you would be able to re-camo but the Nina would still get the normal roll on you. The save you would take afterwards would cancel your camo state though, as technically speaking, you do enter into camouflaged stage before the conclusion of your order. You can read more in detail in the section of the Order Expenditure Sequence: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence Notice point number 8: “Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls.”
Not sure why you @'d me, as that's exactly what I said in my first post :). The reason I say it's still unresolved is because there are people that think the BTS roll would cancel the camo state due to simultaneity (you and me), and people that think that it would not cancel the camo state due to simultaneity (Mahtamori and several others from the thread on the old forums). Unfortunately, neither IJW, nor a CB employee has sided one way or the other yet. As for unconscious and camo, it looks like @C0MR4DE has it. If it had said "...allows the use to enter the camouflaged state" I could see you becoming an unconscious camo marker. Perhaps the intent was that an unconscious troop could, under very rare circumstances, be in the camo state, but I can't think of any other way for that to happen than this situation, and only if the BTS roll doesn't knock you out.
Please read Camouflaged state, linked to in your quote. The ways to lose a state are listed in the Cancellation clauses for that state. It's not covered in the rules, so anything I say is going to be a personal opinion with no rules backing at all. That said, I'd go with entering the Camouflaged/TO Camouflaged state, then making the BTS/ARM Rolls, because the idea of an Unconscious Camo marker doesn't seem right.
I If you are in null state, automatic skill does not work. CH: LEVEL 2. CAMOUFLAGE is an automatic skill which: During the game, allows the user to be in the Camouflaged state. So if the skill is inactive, there is nothing which ALLOWS you to be in camouflaged state. Cancellation A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.)
