y. in the Non-LT profile. lol. Cause the literraly no reason why the obvious and unprotected LT with aro weapon could cost extra 6 pts. even for strategos 2 and extra CT you drowbacks more, then gain for this 6 pts.
Actually I do think we have a few good CoC troops if SZ is taken out. Now all version of Pheasant is CoC and I like the Madtraps and Red Fury versions. Lei Gong is good in vanilla. But yeah even with that, SZ is still too expensive to be worth it. Note: I just realized the MI version doesn't have mimetisim like the HI. So, F-it. Definitely not worth it.
It always strikes me as odd that he isn't a specialist. You pay a LOT of points for WIP roll that you only get to make once per game. If you manage to slog him all the way to an objective I think you should get to use that WIP for something other than the odd Intuitive Attack. It would also give the smallest of purposes to his non-LT profiles (which should really have Chain of Command anyways; there's a 0 percent chance he's not taking charge should the LT go down).
There's a lot that strikes me as odd with him. To me he's a Sun Tze who doesn't follow the words of Sun Tze.
just recognised, that in N4 Sun-Marksman no more have Flash Pulse. He's becoming more and more pointless and expensive in my eyes
Yeah, its not bad, but it's a lot of points to pay for a plan b when you dont really want a super lt out On aro duty anyway
Command skills have been added since Sun Tzu was added, he should be picking most of them up. Daoyings are schooled by him, so he should have LT2.
Agreed. He should have about every type of command skill. Lt. 2, Stratego L2, Counter Intelligence. I'd also throw in Sixth Sense and Sensor. Also, lightly armored with holomask or Camo+Mime -6. He'd also have weapons for mostly personal defense. Madtraps, BSG, Nanopulsar, Assault pistol, etc.
I'd happily trade total immunity (A bad rule that also doesn't fit him, he seems to be wearing very basic Shang Ji-esqu armour), to up his command and mission skills with LT2, Specialist and Counter Intelligence.
I'd be cooler with bio immunity :) I just realized I sort of described him as a bit like Saladin though. Who I would take in a heartbeat btw.
Sun v2 has weird pricing. Compared to Saladin I can't really shake the feeling that Sun v2 actually has some pretty hefty discounts. Like 15 points for a Multi Sniper, Total Immunity, +1BS and MSV1 isn't bad and that's comparing the LT profiles, if you compare the non-LT profiles and it's obvious that non-LT Sun2 has incentives discount and a pretty big one. Let him into fireteams in ISS and see where that takes him. Still doesn't really change that Sun v1 is by all accounts terribly priced. I don't think his protective abilities are all that much part of the issue, but rather that this profile's either; a) missing a whole host of leadership abilities or b) missing a while bunch of offensive abilities or c) way overpriced. He should not be more expensive than Sun2
Sun 2 would be awesome in a team but the whole idea of him is "off". I don't have a better way to explain it. I can see him being joined by maybe 2 Celestial Guard in a haris. The non-Lt. should also have at least some passive command skill like Counter Intelligence. Sun Tze actually thought fighting was the last resort and actually promoted spying and diplomacy, as well as strategy.
I kind of looked at his profile "blind" when I wrote that, and by that I mean I said to myself "what would this sniper do for me if I didn't try and shoehorn him to be my LT" and yeah... for 45 points it's not bad. While only okay on his own, in a Fireteam he'd get the Sixth Sense he needs to actually perform and we need to remember that this profile while not the sturdiest of them all does have Total Immunity just like Sun1. It does make me miss the Multi Rifle profile, though, which should be clocking in at about 40 points and would make Lei Gong seem gimmicky by comparison. So, Sun2: not good as LT, but probably good as a regular old sniper.
I think HI Sun Tze is still good, for one of the reasons he's always been good. In fact, he's got better at some of the things he does well. The N4 change was a little harsh with the change to bioimmunity and strategos, but he did pick up 6-2 mov, which is pretty great. Rather than write him off, keep him in your mission toolbox and pick him when his drawbacks become pluses. Two of the dependably popular missions, Firefight and Decapitation, depend to some extent on keeping your LT alive. In decap, your LT choice is always obvious, so there's even less drawback to taking Sun. Mr Tze is still the hardest lt to kill in ISS and has a hilarious WIP 17-20 flash pulse that he can use to disable AD troops. Cost is a drawback until it isn't. ST is a model that you naturally want to keep in the backfield until turn 3, but he's always been a great turn 3 sweeper and tank for sector control missions. He's so expensive, fast and durable that even if you're going first he can swing scoring in a game of Frontline or Quadrant Control. 6-2 mov is a win for last turn scoring. Along with that, there are still fun tricks you can muck around with. ISS doesn't have many opportunities for order boosting, but he effectively gives you an 11 order group with his LT order. Moving models between groups has limited utility, but is probably good sometimes. It makes keeping your main group at max orders less work, and it might be fun to keep a garuda or ninja in your small order group so you can hide it and then swap it into an 11 order group for free or just one command token. Reserving two models means you can pay a command token to reserve three if you go first. Try out reserving a hsien haris or deva haris. Reserving a su-jian duo works with first or second turn and could be a pretty good panzerfaust trap.
No, just no. He used to be the super commander, being the only strategos l3 with extra command token. With the nerf to his strategos and some other units gaining acces to extra command tokens he is no longer special. On top of that Avatar not only gained command token but also gained lt+1 order to surpass ST. TI getting nerfed doesnt help at all. Him not getting any cheaper with nerfs to Strategos and TI, on top of Armor getting cheaper and Hackable offering discount is beoynd me. But most importantly the thing that makes ST an actual handicap is new hacking device with improved Oblivion. Most of the factions can in some way place a repeater withing 8" of ST, be it pitcher, camo infliltrator with dep rep, drop troop with repeater, fast panda or just eclipse/white noise covered flash pulse bot. And you know what happens next. ST gets Isolated and you are in LoL with almost no risk from your opponent.
But that's not how Infinity works. It isn't Top Trumps, where your model has to have better stats than models in other factions. Infinity profiles don't have to be auto-include in all lists. For a model to be useful it just has to provide an approach to win in some missions, some of the time. Sun Tze does still have utility particularly in missions when moving 60 points into a certain place in two orders in the third turn and/or staying alive could swing a game. Saying "No" or comparing him to other profiles in other factions doesn't even start to refute those points. I placed 5th in 2018 and 2nd in 2019 in the big ITS tournament at Adepticon (in N3), and both times I ran Sun Tze v1. In both tourneys, I won 3 games in a row. Don't discard him by looking at the profile, try and use him creatively and find a way to make him work. Also the mini is great!
