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Proposal: Kick snipers out of fireteams

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by wes-o-matic, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Does what it says on the tin: Tweak the rules so that profiles with a Sniper Rifle or MSR can’t join Fireteams at all, and give those profiles something to make them effective as threatening solo pieces.

    Snipers are already plenty threatening as solo operators, especially the good ones—Knauf and Lunah and Atalanta are all fine on their own.

    I think it’s really odd that snipers can go in links at all, other than maybe Duos. It would make sense, be more thematic, and help make core links less of a monobuild factor if snipers were just broken out on their own. Judging by Atalanta, giving most snipers Total Reaction would probably do a lot to make sure they remain effective ARO pieces. Even a humble line trooper MSR might be worth taking if they were all FD+4” TR sniper profiles.

    Any takers?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While my initial reaction is "but most snipers are fine, it's only a handful that are problem pieces"; it'd be equally interesting if all snipers by virtue of being snipers were Sappers (aka deplorable campers) and I'd link Total Reaction (or possibly Neurocinetics) to the Sapper state. Wouldn't be undeserving of a closer look at least!

    Should probably not apply to S5+ units, though...
     
  3. SpectralOwl

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    How dare you, the Overdron-in-a-hole conversion is something the world deserves.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I was more thinking of the USARF Blackhole. For the Blackjack the snipers work like a kind of T2 version of the PAC and for the Overdron it functions more like a... plasma missile launcher. Neither strike me as very typical snipers is all. Oh, and the silhouette change for Overhole would be weird in context of TAGs not being allowed to even crouch.
     
  5. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    the local meta i seen is ML are the new go to for fireteams instead of snipers in n4
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    [​IMG]

    A linked sniper is one of those rare things in Infinity that makes perfect sense.
    Snipers rarely operate alone and often work with one or multiple spotters.
    Furthermore, a full sniper team in an active combat zone would often consist of snipers, spotters and soldiers with short-medium range weapons to protect the team if they get engaged in firefights that isn’t in optimal conditions for the sniper(s).
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well, what happened to Snipers and around Snipers in N4?

    MSRs dropped a point but lost Stun Ammo.
    Viral is *worse* than before with the *downgrade* to Shock.
    AP got a substantial buff under new Crit rules, however that pretty much only matters for AP Sniper Rifles. With DAM15, DA is still better against everything below ARM8 in Cover.

    Now that the former Full Auto MOD isn't gated by +1 Burst any more, I'm really sad it just disappeared from the game.
    BS Attack (-3) is very strong, it should have never been on a HMG, but it's the perfect opportunity to make unlinked low Burst weapons viable for Active Turn use.
    TAGs and HI got a lot cheaper and benefit most from Crit changes.
    Disagree on removing Snipers from Fireteams. Snipers are not a problem, especially now that they can't stun and just bounce off TAGs. "Replacing" their role with Missile Launchers and Feuerbachs doesn't look like a good idea.

    If anything I'd prefer MLs to be less of a primary ARO weapon (because it's kinda silly to use anti armor weapons for area denial).

    Snipers picking off people while their team supports them on the other hand is pretty much the definition of what should be a dedicated ARO weapon (and is pretty damn useful for Active Turn).
     
    #7 Teslarod, Mar 10, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
  8. Freki

    Freki Well-Known Member

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    Why FD?

    Otherwise, I personally believe snipers can't fulfil their ARO duty currently unless in a FT. So TR / neurocinetics is kind of mandatory in my view if we want to see any solo sniper. Nisse and Epsilon snipers are pure bait for new (and sometimes not so new) players. The only other use case is the one trick pony of Hidden deployment, to really snipe of an unsuspecting unit
     
  9. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    I think snipers are an opportunity to make some interesting and varied firetams. I personally would love fireteams to become more variable in their functions and construction, and make real trade offs to each type. Keeping the conversation on topic and limited to snipers, I think a cool way to capture the idea of a sniper team would be -

    KAMAU (Fireteam: Sniper, Marksman), MULTI Sniper
    KAMAU Forward Observer (Fireteam: Sniper, Spotter), Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse

    Fireteam: Sniper allows the creation of a fireteam comprising of 2 models, one of which MUST have the Fireteam: Sniper, Spotter special skill. The other MUST have the Fireteam: Sniper, Marksman special skill and be armed with a Sniper Rifle or MULTI Sniper Rifle. While in coherency, the Marksman receives a +3 MOD to BS Attacks or +3 WIP to Discover attempts.

    This captures the classic sort of spotter/sniper dynamic we see in existing militaries and provides a unique bonus, but is not so oppressive to pick apart like a 5 man team might be with lots of angles covered all by team members with +3 BS and +1 Burst.
     
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  10. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Infinity’s fireteam rules don’t really map 1:1 with real world fireteams, although that depends on the specific armed forces. I got an extensive lecture from a former Marine about this not long ago that was really interesting.

    What you’re describing is probably closer to a Combat Group in Infinity terms, and would be better represented by including one or more FO to mark targets and provide +3 BS than by link bonuses.

    Then again, this is a game about small unit elite special ops but boy there are sure some screaming dudes in kilts running around, aren’t there?


    To give more flexibility in setting up a sniper nest on maps where the good ones are a bit outside the DZ.
     
  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    What if snipers got +6 outside of 32" range? Yeah, that range can be hard to achieve, but gives them a definite application in active and reactive turn by virtue of big numbers if you position them right. +6 is a scary number, but it worked for shotguns so I feel it could work at the extreme other end of that spectrum too.

    Otherwise, BS -3 would work. But I dislike this mechanic for the same reason I dislike mimetism - theres no skill, positioning or counterplay in its application. Mimetism feels like a forcefield rather than stealth, and BS-3 feels like a forcefield rather than sneaky sniper stuff.

    Something that applied BS -3 at a certain range would scratch both itches.

    Edit: Special Skill "Concealment"

    When this model declares a BS attack against a target who declares a BS attack back, if this model is in it's +3 rangeband and the target is not, it applies a -3 mod to the target.
     
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