Nobody is saying "nomad OP pls nerf." Lots of factions can link pitchers and repeaters. It isn't nearly as egregious as multiple Infiltrating repeaters popping down in the Midfield, with their own Perimeter Weapons to guard them, but Bahram can play the ARO Spotlight -> Delete 5 guys game very well too. The problem isn't that it's an overpowered mechanic. Rather, it's simply boring, uninspired, and encourages disengagement with your opponent. It's hot fucking garbage from a game play perspective. As I said before, I have zero issue with Guided, as a mechanic, in isolation. It matches the aesthetic and feel of the game 100%. The issue arises from several factors included (1) KHD losing ability to hack through firewalls, encouraging wide repeater nets (2) Spotlight as ARO (3) ability to maintain Targeted state (through Spotlight) on an unlimited number of targets indefinitely (4) very low cost investment (you don't need to build your list around it, because other than the Smart Missile bot you were taking the rest of that stuff anyway). Agreed on most things you're saying, and I wanted to touch on this specifically. Ironically, throwing a Pitcher next to that Kamau or Grenzer, Spotlighting them, and blowing them away with a Guided Missile is actually a pretty effective way of removing that threat. However, it's going to cost orders, and has a reasonably high chance of failing. Remove Spotlight as an ARO, and it retains its thematic use cases without being a chucklefuck game of SpOtLigHt EvErYtHiNg guided missile whackamole.
Remove spotlight as an ARO - and guided returns back to the trash bin it was during N3. You have 45 orders at best for the game, spotlight is B1 no mods, can be aro reset or reset later; maximum 5 guided attacks per turn, not every guided attack will hit, some that hit will be dodged or saved. Oh, and you pay 1.5 swc for that. If you add to it all the orders you need to move repeaters or hackers to spotlight - no one will bother with that, you still have a mission to do. Not unless guided becomes more common weapon.
Generally the goal for defense in Infinity is to put either Orders or risk between the enemy and their objective, which in this case is slapping a Hacking program on something. To make a defensive Hacker work, they need to either reduce the chance that the enemy will succeed on a Hacking attack, add extra steps before the attack can be made, or present a major risk to the resources an opponent is using. Here's a few ideas: 1: Reducing the chances of success; would need to manifest as a ZoC bubble or Circular Template with a modifier (Firewall, -WIP or +BTS, anything works) in order to not break existing mechanics. 2: Add extra steps; I'd bring this in through a Deployment Skill, Program or even just Equipment that grants all other Troopers in ZoC the Non-Hackable skill in Reactive Turn. You'd need to disable the defender before you could threaten targets it protects. Might need to be implemented as a Marker State that can be cancelled by declaring AROs or Orders other than Move to avoid cheese. 3: Present a big risk; we've had this already in N3. Slap a nasty reactive program onto a defensively designed KHD-analogue and call it a day.
But that hacking device is also good at dealing with everything else. It devalues the KHD which is supposed to do one thing - kill enemy hacker. Nah, you're better off using a regular HD, because Oblivion or Spotlight + Guided actually works on more things.
But apparently since we already have option 1 and it's supposedly making several hackers too strong... (We also have 3, btw, in Oblivion. Trinity is in the same spot as most (all?) normal-ammo guns for AROing)
It would cause major internal balance issues in factions and you'd have to rework a shitload of profiles if you did that. You'd have the Tohaa problem of everything needs to compete with a Sukeul (which it frequently doesn't). Two of Yu Jing's sectorials get close to having this issue due to Shang Ji being wildcards where every potential pointman profile needs to successfully make itself more useful than the Shang Ji-sus profile, which is one of the main reasons you never see Yan Huo running around for IA the Multi HMG Yan Huo just can't offer enough to win over a Shang Ji that shoots almost as efficiently and has an extra order every turn.
The trouble with Tinbots is that they're Fireteam related and often on dull profiles that make no sense in Vanilla. As an actual Peripheral that can Dodge and Reset but applied their effects within ZOC they become viable for Vanilla. This would need a specific exception to allow it in Fireteams. This has the advantage of adding a layered defence to critical Hackers as well - a defence that can be removed by something other than Hacking. Alternatively, you build this in as a revised Nullifier: applies a -6 to Hit to all Troopers within its ZOC targeted by a Comms Attack. From a Dep Rep POV, I still think the worst is those that are down at deployment: getting a Dep Rep into a survivable position isn't free and - if placed poorly - can end up costing more to position than to remove. Admittedly a lot of that is table dependent. I honestly think that reverting the change back so all Dep Reps are S1 and changing Deactivators to work within ZOC (potentially al la Sensor) goes a long way to providing better mitigation of Repeaters.
The other thing is, for a Tinbot -3, if you already had a firewall, it provides no benefit. Tinbot -6 is actually very potent. And then you see certain factions have had the Tinbot moved to hacker profiles, and others... haven't.
The interventor isn't the only issue, as there are a hell of a lot more BTS 9 hackers running around either natively like the KoJ, or thanks to wildcard tinbots or fairy dust on the HI variants (Bolts, Wildcats, Kamau, Shangji, De fersen, Hac Tao, Hollowmen, PsyCops, etc.), a lot of which make an appearance in most games against those factions, meaning the amount of BTS 9 hackers is problem beyond just the interventor. but even against total BTS6 in the active a KHD isn't that much better. Got it so no more Co-ordinated order attacks or dogpiling standard aros, need to lock it out to a 1v1, got it. Pity fairy dust only matters if you go first or if the EVO or what you want to fairy dust still exists after the opponent's turn. Bringing back strategic command token use to throw up EVO programs would go a long way to reducing the effectiveness of the HD. A -3 tinbot has proven effective enough a deterrent to a suicide spotlight in the past that this would help. This is true even outside of the guided issue, most of my list building comes down to how do I solve for X, and do I have answers for Y and Z, making list building incredibly inflexible and with virtually no consideration for the mission (which isn't really necessary as they are just kill shit and profit, every mission is annihilation and all that). Which leads to very samey lists, binary unit assessment and faction boredom real fast. If I can get away with spending 8-10 orders turn 1 to with relatively no risk remove most things I deem a threat and render my opponent relatively combat ineffective and leaving me with turns 2 and 3 to carry out the mission with relative impunity I will take that (and often have).
Depends on the profile, while some are just link filler utility, on others it makes sense as they are a hackable solo operator and it improves their Survivability (Hector, Charontid, Taskmaster, EVAder, Shang ji). Or they have been added to profiles that now make them an interesting addition in vanilla (Brigada hacker, Hisen)
People who think that N3 KHDs made hacking worthless... idk what to say. That just isn't accurate. Hell, I saw infiltrating AHDs often enough (and yes, from good players). @Tourniquet Agreed with you on list constraints in N4. Lists are very samey; if I'm playing as OCF, I basically *have* to bring either the Legate HD+ or Kerr-Nau, because otherwise I fail against a Kamau sniper. That's a gear check. And then that constrains my listbuilding options dramatically. I also *have* to bring Sensor to deal with hiding Clipsos, etc. Since active turn firepower is way out of control, in USARF, my defense consists entirely of dudes hiding around corners with shotguns and flamethrowers, so almost every list has group 2 as 2 Grunt infiltrators and 3 shotgun Hardcases to be ablative defense. Actually standing and taking shots against anything seems like a sucker's game. In OCF, I don't even have that option, so defense is basically entirely based around Ikadrons to protect my DZ and Noctifers.
People got the the AHD (which could use some changes, like making Spotlight more persistent and getting rid of the -3 on the roll) and the platform they were placed on confused. Too often I'd see a complaint about the AHD being worthless, and it'd be from someone trying to run it on something that was a questionable model to be carrying it in the first place like a Locust or a Rodok. There were probably more shit profiles carrying the AHD than good ones which really didn't help with public perception. The other type of person I'd see bitching about them being useless were the people who only brought an AHD and were then confused by it getting bullied out of the game by enemy KHDs. Yeah, that's kinda the role they fill. AHDs are a supportive unit, you bring KHDs to open the game up for them. The KHDs attacks to open the game field for the AHD, who then controls the field. Difficult concept for some people who just wanted to take the AHD and be done with it.
My lists averaged 2 khd, 1-2 ahd and a hd/hd+ in N3 and it was fine, and to the point that im of the opinion that people were just over reacting. and in opponent's lists the AHD was a fairly common sight especially in late N3 where it became necessary to deal with linked REM and HI aro pieces. now I just take a single linked HD+ and maybe a back up HD or EVO if i can squeeze it in and call it good, and have not had an issue. With the exception of Redrum and SHIELD programs being fundamentally broken (in that they just did not work) N3 hacking was far healthier.
Yes, because heaven forbid that you may need to use other pieces to clear out enemy threats to the piece you want to use.
I think there's a lot of people who want the Nomad hacking game to be noninteractive, overpowering, and braindead. It's unfortunate that they're so loud. I don't think it's the longtime Nomad players, either.
Nope, as a long time Nomad player I want to go back to when it was more interactive. What some poeple aren't really seeing at the moment (probably due to lack of reps thanks to the current global situation), is that while there are a million and one ways in the game to cave in a hackers skull by other means, you can really only leverage those in the active turn when you can hunt them down and thats fine, especially if you are going first. Where as there is no appreciable reactive defence, which is amplified when you going second and your opponent just chokeslams your list with a single hacker leaving you with nothing that can meaningfully threaten them and locking you out of the game, as you are incapable of mounting a meaningful defence.
Just to be clear, are you refering to something like: 1. Spend few orders shooting a B1 speculative pitcher all the way across the table on 1-3s at best 2. Spend few orders trying to B1 spotlight the target 3. Shoot a few missiles, hopefully hitting and forcing saving rolls ? Cause I don't see it as a reliable strategy, unless your opponent tend to pile troops together (Or go for LT).
The other thing is that, for example, it's pretty much always a bad idea to try to kill Musashi (or any other high-tier melee specialist) in melee, but in order for your opponent to leverage his capabilities, he has to develop his position on the board to where he's vulnerable to some asshole with a combi rifle. Hackers don't need to leave your DZ to affect the board, so their vulnerability is (supposedly) through their repeater network. This is poorly thought out in N4, in my opinion, since it's not nearly dangerous enough to do so. An Interventor tripping over a hidden KHD in his repeater network is just going to laugh at him and isolate him. This is why the "you shouldn't engage a strong hacker in hacking" argument falls apart. The other solution, of course, would be to have better ways to stop repeaters from propagating everywhere, but Nullifiers don't exist anymore.
1. Try B2 on 12-15s, or spending 3 orders to sucide run a dep rep or fast panda, fairly reliable. 2. while B1 its often only take an order or two on average stick it 3. dont need to clustered if all you need to do is scalpel out the HI attacker, or enemy missile bot, or linked sniper, or just cap the LT
