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Praise to the Lord! - The Orders Are Coming

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. SpectralOwl

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    It's very possible, and requires only keeping versatility and synergy on par with AVA skew and Fireteam bonuses while respecting the design limitations of the greater faction. With Infinity's living ruleset this shouldn't be a big challenge, but CB's lack of respect for the scope of some factional limitations and reluctance to nerf anything has begun creating a bigger issue. Factions with narrow or insignificant built-in flaws, or those that have been addressed by power creep (Nomads in general, CA, ALEPH) perform consistently well, while those with relevant shortcomings (most notably PanO and now Ariadna) are rendered situational by scenario choice and opponent.
     
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  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    It says the bike is a preorder exclusive.
    Does that mean the bike is an exclusive model, or the profile is exclusive and will have a different profile release?
    Or is it an exclusive pose and dismounted model, which won’t be seen in future general release (like the USARF Maverick).

    Do we have any info on that? I don’t see myself fielding the Boarding Shotgun profile in Acon when he doesn’t have Smoke, I’m much more into the Red Fury profile as I think it’s a decent flanking bully that can harass minor non-linked pieces
     
  3. chaos11

    chaos11 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there's any more info yet. I'm hoping it's just like the advance packs they've done before, a chance to get it early, but 'pre-order exclusive' does seem pretty explicitly not that.
     
  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As per all other exclusive releases this is a special release only available now, another release will be available at a later date.

    The BS profile is the only specialist profile, quite handy given the units mobility.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Kriza does not have "Swiss level" shooting, yes, PanO is not as flashy as some other factions and they are not as readily flexible but they have their own design space, a more direct if you will gameplay that stays competent.

    If you want change in PanO I would suggest stop wanting things other factions have, but think how functions can done in a "PanOceanian" way.
     
  6. Pinky

    Pinky Well-Known Member

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    Would 3 Minelayer TOs that cost 2 SWC and close to 90 points really make PanO vanilla gamebreaking? I don't think so, it's expensive, has obvious counters, finds itself in one of the weakest vanilla factions and is already a thing in most other armies.
     
  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    No, but would give theoretical access to 3 TO infiltrators that can be objective grabbers, snipers and minelayers, in any case the fact other factions can potentially do something like that is not an excuse, otherwise all factions would be the same.
     
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  8. Jimneysweep

    Jimneysweep Member

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    Could you summarize what you think the PanO design space is then?

    Because from my perspective it just seems to be "+1 BS" and "no equipment or skills to leverage it". Yu jing seem to be able to do a lot of what PanO does but with access to smoke and toys but without the +1BS. And some PanO specific equipment is now available to other factions (drop bears, for example).

    So excluding Joan and TAGS, what is specific to PanO that you can't do in other factions? and what "design space" does it exist in that we can grow within?
     
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  9. Freki

    Freki Well-Known Member

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    That's great to hear and I totally support this approach. I just wonder how enforced are the different design spaces and how much other armies are infringing on PanO design space. PanO has a lot of weaknesses: LT/CoC // WIP // Midfield // Smoke // Hacking // Characters (seriously rework Uma), some stuff where they are ok Repeater coverage // Drop troops, and stuff where they are great: REM // TAG // HI // general +1BS
    So far the sectorials mostly work, nothing give a feeling of being amazing which is fine but it relies on min maxed fireteams: new bolt sniper // classic 2 snipers 2 mines SAA core, MSV2 linked Kamau.

    Now TJC has clearly infringed with the MSV1 MMR 5men link sniper while boasting the strongest hacking sectorial, and access to strong f2f winners (kriza, Szally)

    Here are some design areas I would explore:
    • Increase reliance on shooting to control the board in ARO: give mimetism to Sierra, increase AVA of Helots in vanilla, a HI neurocinetics profile with FB
    • Better drop troops. Why does Aleph have a better drop troop in the Garuda? PanO does not need access to Hellcat / Tomcat level, but something a bit better than a very vanilla drop troop or maybe just a point cost reduction where people would start using them more
    • Is the WIP 12 still needed to make PanO feel like PanO? WIP 13 would still be bottom tier
    A shame ITS must so far be collecting so little data to help you have an idea how often troops are used and those that need addressing. Kamau MSV2 sniper pick up rate at close to 100% good or bad, this is a design space question. Uma pick rate close to 0%, is that how this character should be implemented?
    Balance patches are amazing at keeping the game fresh, with N4 I hope you start doing one every 6 months hopefully with some data you can gather through ITS to guide your actions.

    Keep up the good work and I can't wait to watch your new video

    P.S fix UMA, even 10 points cheaper I would not look at her
     
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Tbh, I'm fine with Pano just being the TAG faction. TAGs in N4 are super fun, and Pano does them like nobody else. If they're the only thing that makes Pano unique, I'm pretty ok with that.

    Now, I suppose I'm coming from the perspective that Pano is my second faction, which I chose specifically because I wanted to play (a) TAGs, and (b) a playstyle opposite that of my first faction, Haqq. So maybe I'm biased :-) Anyway, from my perspective Pano's lack of cheap skirmishers feels like an interesting challenge, not a bug.

    That being said, fwiw I would support Trinitarians in vanilla. I think they're the only unit in the game that exists in a sectorial but not vanilla, and I just don't like weird exceptions like that. To me, vanilla by definition means all the sectorial options together in one place.
     
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  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Ok, I stand corrected, Swiss is 10% better at killing targets (no surprise shot) than unlinked Kriza (and same if Kriza is linked).


    Either way the topic of giving various "non-repetive" tools to PanO so it can actually solve problems occuring on the table there were quite a number of topics.
     
  12. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
    Warcor

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    Also Gwailos in CA. Imho, I think it's a nice approach of getting sectorial-only unique units and loadouts as a way to balance vanilla factions and sectorials.
     
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  13. Jimneysweep

    Jimneysweep Member

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    Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that TAGS are a bad thing in PanO. Quite the opposite, it's one of the main reasons I stick to Vanilla. We Just don't seem to have much more outside of that design aspect other than "+1 BS and mimetism". So outside of TAG's, whatever design space PanO is being told to shut up and sit down in seems really uninspired and not well reflected in the troops we have (e.g Aquila), especially when you consider how many of the themes seem to be repeated within the faction itself (MSV2 + multi sniper, the "locust" template, etc).

    Also "If you want change in PanO I would suggest stop wanting things other factions have" is a weak excuse, considering other factions have been given things that were supposed to be PanO specific.

    Anyway, I'm looking forward to finding out whatever flavour of MSV sniper and updated ORC profiles the space church is about to get...
     
  14. Pinky

    Pinky Well-Known Member

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    Both Varuna and Svarl added some serious choices to vanilla and the things that work are high tech, neat gear and flexibility choices with a lot of shooting potential. A Trinitarian would blend well with this, to skew PanO towards a mid cost high quality troop focus. Instead of having 3 really big units and then trying to fill the rest with cheap orders, with more 20-30 point choices you could have 14-15 order lists with relatively few HI choices that allow for pumping orders into a large number of models on the table.
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It is an old design solution starting with unsurprisingly MO and N2 TO Sergeants costing an extra 1SWC making them virtually a non option for vanilla, and was expanded in sectorials that borrow units from other factions like the Aleph units, drastically changing gameplay and not available in vanilla.

    I am quite fond of the latest approach, it can allow sectorials to exist and have some unique units to solve issues internally without disbalancing vanilla or changing the flavor of the sectorial.
     
  16. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    There's also a good (?) example in the differences between Tohaa and Spiral Corps, though with Spiral Corps technically being an NA2 faction it gets kind of wishy-washy but the point is that Spiral gets a lot of profiles that Tohaa doesn't and it does a lot to diversify the "sectorial" from the main faction.

    Frankly I wish they did it more often.
     
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  17. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Seems like it's design is to rely on synergy against harder targets in order to move up the board, close enough for a sword. I see it as flank protection as every profile has a template and a turn 2 mid field problem solver. ARM 4, 2 W, templates and CC. If he gets close enough, he can wreck a fireteam.


    Are Pan-O troops not good at Suppression Fire? I mean that's alot of high BS and a fair amount of ARM, mimetism and flanking.

    BS 13 drop troops actually is what makes them stand out. Pan-Os theme is shoot shit dead. High BS slapped onto all the various different types of troops.

    Isn't the average wip for specialists in the game 13 and the average wip for specialists in Pan-O 13?
     
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    First of all I'm a big fan of Sectorial only Profiles.
    Sectorial troops that aren't accessible in Vanilla (Aleph loaners, Mercs)
    And Sectorials that actually have a use for increased AVA (why the heck are Jotums AVA2 in PanO Vanilla?).

    Most Vanilla armies are impossible to manage in terms of real restriction at this point. Mainly because the Sectorials composing them merely brush all 3 of the points above.
    Sectorial only Profiles barely exist or are relevant for Links only.
    Sectorial restricted troops that contribute to defining theim rather than just flavor, basically don't exist at all outside of NA2 and PanO Aleph loaners.
    Merc Core pieces like McMurder are more the common relevant examples, but there aren't that many.
    AVA restrictions for Vanilla matter a lot less at 15 slots and with 4+ Sectorials to draw from to fulfill similar roles.

    For example: Gwailos are the only troop in the entirety of CA Vanilla can't access and Vanilla even gets unique options via Aspects.

    If B5 Mimetism isn't good enough to qualify, what is?
    Mind you the guy can Core Link for B6 BS16.
    Swiss Guards are exclusively solo pieces. The entirety of PanO doesn't have Core linkable BS14+ B4 troopers with Vis MODs, B5 guns, or even a single B4 gun with more than a -/+3 MOD at BS13.
    I don't mind that, those are good restrictions.
    Or they would be if they applied to the whole game as a ceiling, I don't like that they do not apply to several Sectorials that are not part of "the shooting Faction" (which in itself is a very outdated way to look at PanO).

    N4 MO suddenly had a BS15 Tikbalang with an AP HMG that no one else could access.
    Not only was MO not the right Sectorial to break through the ceiling like that with a sub 70 points TAG, they also have no other native competition in the FTF&raw firepower department.
    While Wildcard Vet Kazak AP HMGs in Line Kazak Core Links weren't deemed a problem, Hospitaler HMGs in Magister Links were removed for one strange reason or another mid N3.
    While Karhu Feuerbach Wildcards are somehow not a problem for an edition where armor is supposed to be useful, we can't give Onyx a decent anti armor option at range.

    I do hope problems like this disappear as CB makes progress on full Sectorial reworks. (Unfortunately I do have my doubts, several "designed for N4" Sectorials don't strike me as all that well designed and balanced in N4).
    But for now balance, Faction Identity and Faction Restrictions are all over the place.
     
    #98 Teslarod, Mar 4, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
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  19. Freki

    Freki Well-Known Member

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    Suppressive fire is still different, you can outrange it quite often. And you don't start with 3 units in suppressive fire before 1st turn begins.
    Ask yourself the question why would anyone want to play Vanilla PanO? You have no board control in reactive: no mines in the midfield, no good hacking for spotlight and immobilising HIs or TAGs, and no good ARO since everyone is on B1, the opponent will always have at least a B4 gun to take down anything sticking their heads out.
    Once again why play Vanilla PanO compared to CA for instance? on par TAGs, on par HIs, better midfield, access to smoke, better specialists, better LTs. So why do they even get a TR bot with mimetism to have better shooting ARO presence?

    I still prefer BS12 + mimetism to shoot. And with the a low PH-11, you will be hard pressed to attempt landing in a blind spot. Have you seen much play from Akalis and Crusaders actually dropping? Most cases you are on 55%. Or you can take the EVO tax. But then the opponent will be pretty sure about what is coming. PanO could use better drop troops so to not rely on skirmishers in the midfield. It will give more a PanO vibe (imo) and some interesting vectors of attack.

    I am comparing the basic specialist Trauma doc and machinists. I am not asking for Patsy to have wip 14 or anyone else really.
    Nomad, Haqq, CA, Aleph, O-12, Tohaa are 14 or above
    Yu Jing and Ariadna are at 13
    PanO is at 12. So apparently we can't repair or doctor as well as hillbillies who have suffered more than a century of technological stagnation.
     
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  20. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    You should mention that tiger soliders are better gun fighters than Pan-o drop troops.
     
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