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The writing on the wall for Line Infantry

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Triumph, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I’m not super well versed in PanO, but I opened up Svalarheima and built a Haris: HMG, Hacker, Shotgun for 100 points, 2 SWC. A normal Jotum costs 87 points and 1.5 SWC. I feel like the Haris is more flexible and 13 points isn’t a back-breaking points difference? Especially considering that the Orcs eat up 3 combat group slots instead of 1 for the TAG. Assuming you want a maxed out 15 orders (I don’t, but many do), the Orcs leave you an average of 16.6 points per model to build the rest of your list, while the Jotum gives you 15.2.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Dragao compares easier so I'm gonna use him.
    You have better Firepower. B5 BS15 DAM16 AP/DA vs B5 BS14 DAM15 N
    You have comparable durability. 3 STR ARM8 vs 6W ARM4. The link has to worry about templates and basic guns doing more damange, the TAG has to worry about Mono, K1 and E/M doing more damage.
    You generate 2 Orders vs 3 for 1 list slot vs 3 That's an upside in my book if I can max out to 16 instead of 15. I can easily buy 2 Orders with the 20-30 points difference which increase my versatility and overall list durability (i.e. TAG + 2 Auxilia).
    I can run the TAG option, that has an edge in several aspects, in Vanilla where I get compensated with vastly increased choices for forfeiting the option to have links.

    At the end of the day the pure Orc Haris doesn't exist for a reason.
    No one runs that. You happily run the Orcs in Fusilier Cores, in a Haris with KoJ, Karhu, Shona, Baghs, Bolts, Aquila or whatever. But what you definitely do not run is 3 Orcs.
     
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  3. SpectralOwl

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    I've seen it run, it's actually pretty good in Frontline and other zone-control scenarios and always has been. The individual durability, Tinbot and extra Burst on shotguns make it very likely they'll survive in midfield for a turn if properly covered by long-range ARO, and the HMG can get you out of your DZ. It's only gotten better with options for mixing in Stealth and Climbing Plus. Lack of any non-Hacker Specialists and being just shy of truly resistant to Hacking keep the pure ORC Haris a niche option though.
     
  4. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    Here's my simple suggestion:

    - Only basic line troopers are allowed to form fireteam cores.
    - All other troopers are limited to haris, including all the wildcards bullshit. Remove limitations on number of haris and needed skill, improve their bonuses (I think 6th sense and +1B for all haris and duos would be fine).
     
  5. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Like the first bullet point, the second not so much. Complete Tohaa-fication of all sectorial would go too far. Those Core+Haris lists already feel uninspired and contradict the classification of a skirmish game. Tohaa also has major flaws to offset its ability to form infinite Haris teams, would not be easy to balance it with other factions.

    Giving all fireteams Sixth Sense would be an absolute nightmare and CB could rather remove surprise attack entirely. Players should be convinced that the move together aspect and therefore order efficiency is already a big plus.

    Only line infantry in core also sounds too harsh and would shake up the current state to much. My suggestion would be to keep all "Counts as [Line Infantry XY]" as most of them are already only slightly improved LI, mostly dire foes. Keeping Wildcard for iconic characters only would also be thematic.
     
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  6. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    The thing about the move together aspect is it still doesnt afford the same lethality or effectiveness at stopping an enemy as a Cutter or Swiss or Sphinx or Avatar or Achilles and others to a lesser degree.

    I think what is the problem is people arent looking at the problem from outside the box because CB themselves have never demonstrated that there ever was an outside the box in the first place. Well, I think the individual modifiers like +1-3 on various things is actually a nice start, but, fireteams require the box to be exploded
     
    #86 wuji, Feb 28, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
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  7. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    What wins firefights?

    Any combat veterans or generally just knowledgeable people know what wins firefights if you're on the defensive like an ambush just got sprung?

    Does it make sense that solely offensive weapons in real life are used defensively in Infinity?

    Are we thinking about attack and defense too restrictedly to come up with a viable solution?
     
  8. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    Effective fire, whether from weight of fire or precision fire, to suppress and neutralise the enemy*.

    This leads to an idea I've been toying with that the 5-model bonus is a -3 BS to the opponent (a la SF) rather than a +3 to the link.

    Still doesn't go far enough to bring LI SWC into line with optimised wildcard units but a quick and easy change that reduces some of the high BS madness and makes fireteam LI a bit more survivable.

    *this is assuming you're responding to effective enemy fire in a contact rather than an ambush. You don't win being properly ambushed, you die.
     
  9. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    What darthchapswag said. Also if might add, in real life/warfare, there are no defensive or offensive weapons. An M-240B can be used to defend a position or assault one. Besides the effective fire that was mentioned, maneuverability and aggressiveness are also required to win.
     
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  10. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    One issue with Fireteams is that the current Bonuses model really rewards the types of units that people take issue with - 4 line troopers and 1 LoLcannon on the super cheap. Most seem to be in agreement that the issue is being able to drag 4 schmucks while gaining the bonuses of having a much more expensive Link at a fraction of the price.

    One thing that hasn't really been discussed is motivation for those others models in the Fireteam. Right now, there really isn't any massive motivation to have complementary profiles in the team, which sort of goes against the real-world notion of Fireteams in the first place. A pretty common layout is FT Leader, Rifleman, Automatic Rifleman (MG), Grenadier. These roles support each other. In Infinity you basically end up with Automatic Rifleman / FT Leader, Rifleman x4. How do we reward building complementary Fireteams?

    A potential alternative is to simply remove all of the Fireteam bonuses, and treat Fireteams acting together as troopers functioning under a Coordinated Order. In the active turn, this means that there is actually some benefit to bringing your LGL, your Sniper Rifle, your HMG guy, etc. Actually getting them all to engage a single target without provoking multiple AROs would be difficult, as it probably should be if we want to reduce the current mechanic, where one buffed due pie slices and dice dicks pretty much any opposition in the active turn.

    I'm not wed to the idea at all, and haven't really tested it out, just throwing it out there. It could have the potential to generate *extremely* complex single orders that take a while to resolve, but such orders would also likely be high impact in game terms so happen less frequently.
     
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  11. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Not necessarily, this is a playstyle thing, and amore prevalent in N3. This edition where a fireteam regardless of points takes up a literal third of your army means they need to do more than just murder, and even if they are built to just be a rolling ball of death taking complimentary weapons to allow it to act effectively in all range bands, otherwise there are multiple specialist profiles and other support profiles (Hackers and/or tin bots) that are somewhat necessary in the current environment.
     
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  12. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Still working on a larger response but there is also the a part of this thread's concern, linetroops...
     
  13. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Effective Fire :ok_hand:

    So Sniper Rifles and Missile Lauchers are more effective with higher BS, higher Burst, mimetism, to a Degee ARM and W, Marksmanship etc. But we don't like giving skills, BS or Burst to troops either as the balance gets weird and the improvements are arbitrary...

    We could get rid of fireteams, that's a suggestion. Now ignoring the fact that only some people like that idea, let's address the rest of it. Lots of profiles and models would get shelved. A few sectorials would become uncompetitive. So, undoubtedly, fireteams for at least this edition are here to stay.

    Just drop the bonuses would also make them to hard to be competitive aside from maybe one build for most sectorials. So that is undoubtedly not what CB would be willing to do.

    Restrict fireteams or their bonuses would work but might be too restrictive and take us back to N2 monounit teams where only one unit is taken cause others just arent competitive enough. Which means more shelves models.

    Lastly is fireteams function in some way like coordinated order. It's honestly maybe too complicated to make that work and even then some troops you wont want to use because if it's B2 for a HI HMG, it's not worth it. Slicing the pie for them would be easy if something isnt done about camo and putting everyone in sup fire, is a Sniper Rifle and a Missle Launcher really gonna work in the Midfield etc etc. It would just never work...

    Is there anything else?
     
  14. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Well, a guy shooting a javelin is far away and is normally not being shot at, likewise a sniper is hidden or just too far away. Infinity doesnt quite convey distance well or putting a missile launcher in a fireteam when irl the guy would also have a a rifle or smg etc etc, at least a contender or lsg...

    A grenade launcher is offensive and defensive because you're often enough not looking at the guys shooting at your position...
     
  15. bkromray

    bkromray Active Member

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    Movement, effective fire (suppressing and aimed), and communication. Or move shoot communicate. For ambushes standard doctrine is to pin the element you are attacking down, usually by forcing them down a narrow path and disabling the front and rear units. If you are ambushed the best thing to do is the "mad minute" and break out as fast as possible. Attack your way out.
    Also a 240B is not a great assault weapon, its heavy and awkward to handle, its usually set up to suppress the element you are attacking rather than being up and moving with the flankers.
    What I was going for was you would have the native fire team like it is now, lets use Haqq as my example. So you make a Janissary fire team, you bring 3 normal Janissary one hortlak and a wild card. Since the hortlaks count as Janissary they contribute to the fire team bonuses where the wildcard does not. So you would have a five man team with the bonus of a four. Then something like "native wildcard" could be added to allow wildcard characters to count as members for bonuses. However units that can join teams but are not counts as or wild cards would not add members for the bonus. So one orc in a fusilier fire team would not count just like a wildcard.
     
    #95 bkromray, Mar 2, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  16. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    A few replies got me thinking.

    Fireteams are the balancing factor between Vanilla and Sectorials. So maybe the challenge isn’t to fix fireteams, but rather come up with a good way of balancing the forces - in a way that makes sense and doesn’t feel game-y.

    Fluffwise fireteams simulate that Sectorials work more in unison than Vanilla. They’re a better army, despite less variety, because they’ve got familiarity with each other.

    So how about simply awarding more Command Tokens to Sectorials.

    They’ll retain the efficiency of movement through combined orders, and rather than have superior firepower through stats, you’ll have outgun the enemy by moving more models into firing position. Designate certain models to sustained fire etc. Etc.

    It’ll be the whole combat group working as a team compared to making ‘gestalt’-TAGs.

    -

    It probably wouldn’t do much for Line Infantry, but then again. If you get the order efficiency to put your cheerleaders into suppression fire, they’ll be a lot more order intensive to shift - and at least they won’t be chaff to a more elite model.
     
    #96 regelridderen, Mar 2, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  17. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Just apply the Fireteam Bonus on "number of Fireteam model with LoS/ZoC to the target" base and it can all remain as it is now.
     
  18. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I also think this is a good idea, with the addition that an attack by the link leader in the active turn should be face to face against an enemy attack targeting any member of the fireteam.
     
  19. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Again, all weapons are offensive and defensive. No distinction in real life.
     
  20. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Yeah, but no.
    The problem here is the over-effectiveness of FT Leader that abuse of the FT bonus of 4 MOLES (because they are not FT members, they are just moles).
    There should be no way to protect them. You get a free shot to the enemy with your FT Leader, it is higly possible the enemy won't survive.
     
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