Total Immunity vs. Flash Pulse

I would add throwing em grande or shooting emitter against LI/MI/WB/SK morat to the list.

Technically these do not affect the opponent, therefore according to FtF rules it should be just normal rolls. Unless there is something I'm not aware of.

 

If it's Flash ARO vs Total Immune shooter or the other examples, then yes, it's a Normal roll as target cannot be affected by it.

 

E/M weapons will isolate the target and cause a Guts roll on any target, both of which are direct effects on the target.

 

Morat units are all Veteran and Religious Troop, making them inmunne to Isolation, Loss of Lt, and always pass being able to not even make Guts rolls. According to FtF on the wiki, "If either action does not affect the outcome of the other, use Normal Rolls instead."
Please notice that Amusedbymuse omitted the TAG and HI units, which can be affected by E/M ammo on a failed BTS roll because of the IMM state the can suffer, so his example could apply.

 

"Affecting the outcome" is extremely vague in this situation. Shooting a combi rifle ARO at B1 versus an undamaged TAG will not affect the outcome of the TAG's action. Hell, throwing a vorpal blade on someone won't affect the outcome of their action because the action will take place regardless of whether the user is put into Dead.

Arguably, there's also a difference between "effect" and "affect" and the way it is written seems to indicate the affect having nothing to do with effects, but rather the difference between a smoke grenade tossed where it blocks the LOF used and where it doesn't block the LOF used.

 

Here's the rule from Smoke:

Performing an Attack with a weapon with Smoke Ammunition allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll against all enemy Attacks that require a Roll and LoF, and whose LoF passes through the Zero Visibility Zone generated by the Smoke Template. [Emphasis in original.]

There's no requirement that the attacks would affect or have an effect on the smoke thrower. That requirement is in the general description of f2f rolls, but the smoke rule is there to specifically tell us that a f2f roll happens despite the general requirements for f2f rolls. In other words, smoke has a specific rule that creates a f2f roll against any attack that the smoke blocks.

 

Yes, but that rule makes it so that the smoke grenade if tossed in the correct way will affect the outcome of the shooter's action, without causing any effect on the shooter. Affect != effect.

 

I mean, that reasoning leads to the same result. I don't disagree with you. I just don't think it's necessary to worry about affecting or effects at all, since there are no such requirements in the smoke rule. The rule is clear that if (1) the attack requires LoF, (2) the attack requires a roll, and (3) the attack passes through the smoke template, then there's a f2f roll. It's even in bold face in the rule :-)

 

Sure, but my point is that a unit that is immune to the consequences of an attack can still satisfy the requirements of affecting the outcome of the attack for it to be a Face to Face roll.

The "affecting outcome" part of the rules are a bit weird; kind of like writing "in order to to jump across the brook you need to be able to jump across the brook"

 

Reminds me of the "target means anything capable of being targeted" definition from last week.

 

Religious does not stop you making a Guts roll, you just have to make one if you wish to fall back rather than stay in place.

Likewise Courage does not stop you making Guts rolls, it just allows you to choose pass or fail.

Immunity (Total) is different because against non lethal ammo or weapons the trooper doesn't make a Guts roll at all.

 

I was under the impression that the clause in the Smoke rule was because normally the template wouldn't be placed until the conclusion of the Order so it couldn't prevent attacks otherwise.

 

All Template Weapon templates are placed when the BS Attack is declared.

 

Just for confirmation (and because nobody believes me saying that for years): This means that you put down the entire Template and not a Marker to signify a center point when you declare the attack?

 

Both I believe, you specify the point you are attacking, then place the template centred on that point.

 

Yes.

Direct Templates and Impact Templates both say this (emphasis is in the original text):

• The Template must be placed when declaring the Attack in order to determine if the Main Target is inside in the Area of Effect and which Troopers and Game Elements (Markers, Deployable weapons or Equipment…) will be affected by the Attack, as this may influence their possible ARO, or second Short Skill of their Order.

N3 had very similar wording.

 

I think @Commoner1 was asking whether you have to select the point first (guessing at what area the template would encompass), or whether you can choose the positioning by placing the template itself in the spot of your choice, thereby choosing the exact area it will cover.

Much as I'd prefer the place-the-whole template approach, I think you've ruled it as "choose the point first" in both N3 and N4 so I doubt you meant to answer "yes" to the question I think he was asking?