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The writing on the wall for Line Infantry

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Triumph, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I take Ghulam SWC guys on occasion, I think they can be a good choice in RTF for example

    I also recently took some SWC Securitate, they were very effective.

    I never take Moderator SWC guys but, you know. BS 10. And I rarely take Alguaciles at all, which IMO are amongst the very worse line troopers in the game (not being able to notably do anything particularly well, not being notably cheap, and a 1 SWC LT... absolutely pap).
     
  2. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I feel the biggest issue with mixed fireteams is how unclear it is if a certain group is legal to link.

    A suggestion I have would be to make it clearer on what is required and what is optional. Some links are "legal" fireteams even tho 0 people in the link do not have the name of that type of link, but in other cases it is not. The call it a fusilier fireteam but everyone is an orc or named character.

    A solution to that problem would be give every model a tag of main or secondary for X fireteam. So a fusilier is a fusilier main fireteam. An orc is max 1 as a fusilier secondary fireteam and the orc has a separate line that says the orc is an orc main fireteam. Bipandra is a wildcard secondary fireteam. So on and so forth.

    And when you create a link team you must say what time of link it is: fusilier and must have atleast 1 person in that link that is a main of that type, rest can be secondaries.

    And then for nerfing purposes you could start saying that you must have atleast as many mains as secondaries or w/e.

    But the current way that mixed link teams are being handled is super vague and a bitch to understand when no one is of the correct type and if it is legal or not.
     
  3. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    TBH

    We are using basically the fireteam rules from N2 right now and it shows

    I don't... hugely like them? And I am keen to see what they become.
     
  4. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    I’m still of the opinion that fireteams acting similarly to a coordinated order would be a good starting point. It would probably need iteration but I think it’s in the right zone. The devs would then have a trade space involving eligibility, ct use, allowable skill declarations, ARO targeting, number of participants and coherency to use to adjust balance between factions and between sectorial and vanilla armies.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    A bit of a cleanup as far as who can run what would be nice. I played a TTS game against someone running Kosmoflot yesterday, and they had a Haris of Frontovik, Kosmosoldat, and the UKR - illegal, but easy to get confused.
     
  6. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

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    I think the Kosmosoldat got screwed by getting denied haris, after they took away his burst bonus on the big guns.
     
  7. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    Link Teams are badly balanced across factions right now because CB hardly even looked at some of them before releasing them into N4. I never logged out of Army after they accidently allowed people to access it and watched the live updates as they went. Things kept shifting back and forth between bonuses like they had no idea up until the week of release.

    The creep in Fireteam power combined with mods or negating mods due to equipment and skills (Grenzer, Bolt, looking at you), combined with Sixth Sense negating Surprise Attack means that unless you have an equally stupid link you rely on Combined Orders or durability getting you through things.

    I have a ton of factions, but it feels bad to play a lot of them right now, I can do literally everything but better with my Corregidor in a much more competitive format due to the stupid amount of options.

    It's unfortunate, but I am really considering getting rid of armies for the first time since N2.
     
  8. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    In all seriousness, these comments keep coming up in the forums in various threads since N4 release. I do agree with you btw.

    I know, it is not all black and white and the experience may vary depending on the local meta, but something with fireteams is not right at the moment. During the worldwide lockdowns CB has the chance to gather some feedback and make changes without disturbing the ITS scene but apart from the stress with Defiance they seem to be almost dead.

    Is there any way to know whether CB is reading this or will ever make a comment like "We thank you for your input and are discussing this internally."
     
    #48 Ghost87, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  9. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I think fire team rules being separate from N4 is a good indicator that they are aware of the problem.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, there's some that need to be looked at, but I hope they're tempered against being able to just smoke + MSV and beat anything in a firefight.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    On the flip side the lockdowns mean they're getting much less feedback from ITS events and actual gameplay, even with TTS and Aus/NZ.
     
  12. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    One way they could curb them is to have core fireteams cost a command token at the beginning of each of your active turns, whether they were broken or not. That way defensive links have a bit of a tax on them and over reliance on a spearhead type link starts to burn into your command resources.
     
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  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    It's a pity that they didn't push the boat out further on the ITS this season.

    This ended up being the perfect opportunity to test things in a relatively "safe" environment.

    If things still aren't great for the next season (year starting this August, so 2021-2022) then I hope that opportunity is taken up.

    But, here's the thing, as much as Fireteams may be an issue right now... does anyone think that fixing them is actually going to improve the rates at which Line Infantry are being fielded?
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah. I run Unidrons and Grunts in my Onyx and USARF because they fit within the fireteam schema.
     
  15. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't think the pick rate of Unidrones or Dakini could be increased in N4 because they already were bonkers. Absurd skill line, buffable Plasma Weapons and now able to go prone. The only thing line-infantry-y with these is the classification.

    Funny thing is: now that the skills are de-nested one can easily see the myriads of skills they gain from being REM for +3 points. Can't understand why CB kept them as they were, the only balancing factor I can see is that with the N4 hacking prevalence they have a weakness.

    With grunts I agree they just fit into the army like a glove. However, Marauders/Minutemen could have been a bit more distinguished.
     
    #55 Ghost87, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Looking at the win rates of OCF and OSS, it's more that Unidrons are the best in-faction and Dakinis are just bonkers.
     
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  17. SpectralOwl

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    Yes, absolutely. Super-powerful defensive and offensive mixed links being so cheap and accessible in practically every faction mean that outshooting a BS16 HI is the performance floor for anything that you're relying on to clear the way out of your DZ, and wasting several orders from a HMG on the same platform is ideal for a hard ARO. Basic Line Infantry simply can't compete with the BS swing without exceptional factors in their favour. If link mixing gets less stupid and produces results more akin to Vanilla lists we'll probably see more HMGs and Spitfires as unhackable backup gunners, and if it gets closer to mid-N3 people might be tempted to throw in a Missile Launcher. They'll likely still only be seen as 15th slot point fillers in Vanilla though outside of Specialists.
     
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  18. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Aaah, so by "fixing fireteams" what you actually mean is eliminating mixed fireteams?

    Or, going back to them being a highly regulated and rare anomaly?

    As opposed to actually changing the fireteam rules.

    Because if that's what you mean, then sure. But changing the fireteam rules won't help line infantry, if anything it'll hurt.
     
  19. SpectralOwl

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    If the BS bonus for a 5-man goes they'll get a lot more feasible. BS gets increasingly more valuable the higher it is, giving already-high BS platforms in links a strong edge. The point comparison starts getting more even without to-hit buffs, for much the same reason as REMs are valued far above their points value as attackers because of what Assisted Fire does for them, making the point trade-off between for example an Alguacil and a Brigada less clear-cut.
     
  20. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I agree, this would make fireteams far more realistic and less problematic power wise. The only bones I would give them is either keep the 4 man sixth sense ability or make it 360 visor to represent that each man is actually looking in a different direction. I would also give the active player the choice to choose between going full burst with one troop or making one the spear head and choosing others as secondary shooters after the opposing player chose where their AROs are being directed. To prevent teams from being obliterated by traps. So team moves, AROs are declared at several members then with that second half of the order choose all members shoot or dodge etc, if all AROs are dedicated to the obvious spearhead main gunner, then choose that the he has full burst and the other team members do nothing since they arent being targeted. I would also kind of want the option for the spearhead to shoot while the team is allowed to dodge. I'd even allow for a hacker to hack as long as they had LoF if they were not the Spearhead. This version of fireteams would also bring line troops back into the fore cause they no longer have to worry about being a wasted sacrifice if the rest of the team took out the threat. Likewise a player would nor benefit from just loading a bunch of HMGs into one team because only one member will ever be able to use full burst anyways. Range is a plus but burst for SWC cost and all those weapons huddled together would make a tempting target to potentially cripple an by removing all their swc. I would actually make the formation of a team cost a command token even at the beginning of then game with this kind of play since it is technically a permanent coordinated order... it really wont break the game this way. Let me know what ya think and if you're able to test it. I can't at the moment.

    CB historically has read all the complaints. They're not dumb, they are however preoccupied with other projects often and also have a proclivity of wanting to do things their way. Years ago tons of players demanded a few things, Morats get better and boy did they. The Zerat got ODD which was a popularsuggestion, the Raktorak could link with everyone and the Raicho and Soggy got huge buffs. Another huge complaint was HI and TAGs were not viable in ITS where more orders meant victory. All sorts of suggestions were brought up. I personally wrote a big letter to CB and a sent a pastry bribe... it took a couple of years before we saw changes like Oznat with Sensor which was a popular suggestion and even longer before we saw some troops get an extra order, which was not my idea but others especially HI were given MOV 6-2. Plenty of people suggested it but I went further and explained why it was necessary. I made generic lists with one army composed of LI costed troops and the amount of orders they were likely to field, I believe it was 15 or 16 while the other list was HI costed troops and described that if every order was comprised of move and shoot the LI army could move up half way to the board and back to their DZ presumably accomplishing objectives. Where as the HI costed force could only make it up to the midline before they were out of order. I calculated the number of inches in total each force could traverse and found out that if HI were 6-2 they could at least match the speed of the LI force. While we would have to trust that extra orders afforded LI more attempts at grabbing objectives with usually mildly less effective wip and every consecutive order with a high burst gun is equivalent to less orders with a higher BS... The point of the story is CB does hear us it just takes them some time. So create a poll, come up with good reasoning why something should change and write them a letter...
     
    #60 wuji, Feb 26, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
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