1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hacking vs shooting

Discussion in 'Rules' started by konuhageruke, Feb 25, 2021.

  1. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    734
    A simple question, and I assumed to know the answer, but please provide be a quote to support that.

    If A is in hacking area of B and decides to BS attack B, B decides to ARO hack. Is it FtF?
     
  2. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    3,542
    Yes, if the Hacking program is labelled as Attack.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    It’s not necessary to be an Attack.

    “For actions to be resolved with a Face to Face Roll, both Troopers must affect each other directly. If either action does not affect the outcome of the other, use Normal rolls.”

    Practically this doesn’t matter for Hacking because all hacking programs that can directly affect enemies are Comms Attacks*, but there’s probably other edge cases where a Not Attack FTFs an Attack.

    * Comms Attacks are considered an Attack.
     
    chromedog and Mahtamori like this.
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Under this phrase, I could use White Noise to "special dodge" against a Multispectral visor (spending an order, since it's a short order program). Mind you, I think this would be not intended in any case, since in Smoke Ammunition the wiki specifies it causes a FTF and in the White Noise it doesn't. Oh, and White Noise is not a comms attack, but affects the enemy with a MSV.
     
  5. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    No it doesn't, it affects the board but White Noise has no effect on individual troopers. No state is applied, no saving rolls are made, no wounds are lost.
     
    inane.imp likes this.
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    It could be argued that blocking LoF is affecting a trooper, but I think we use different definitions for "affect" in this situation, anyway.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    That would be an indirect effect, a F2F roll requires the two participants to affect each other directly.
     
    Mahtamori and inane.imp like this.
  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,555
    Likes Received:
    2,620
    RAI is pretty clear: White Noise functions like smoke, but against visors.

    RAW is less clear, and could result in someone being able to argue that this interaction is not valid.

    @ijw might you be kind enough to help us straighten this out? Can you F to F White Noise against a BS attack?
     
  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    3,542
    White Noise lacks the proper line to be able to generate a FtF roll. Check the Smoke ammo for reference.
     
    ijw, toadchild, jfunkd and 1 other person like this.
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    No. Just no. White noise is in no way like Smoke except that introduces a ZVZ to the table.

    This - based on long and painful discussion - is explicitly the intention, and that’s consistent across editions.

    Note - for example - that White Noise does not trigger a Dodge because it’s not a template weapon.
     
    #10 inane.imp, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  11. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    2,217
    For what it's worth White Noise is not an elegible ARO, thus in the case @konuhageruke mentioned White Noise would be no option anyways.
     
  12. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2020
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    True, but there is the extremely rare case of using White Noise in Active Turn while in LoF of a trooper with MSV, where you would get 2 normal rolls instead of a FtF.

    Personally, given how rare that such a maneuver would be a good idea, I wouldn't mind it gaining the ability to "special dodge," as it would make sense for the Hacker to try and gum up the MSV's optics before they can get a shot off, but since it isn't an ARO it doesn't really matter.

    The rules also are a bit conflicted when it comes to what "affects" another trooper, as, for example, using White Noise on top of a trooper with that Trooper declaring BS Attack is not considered to be affecting them, so it's two normal rolls. If, however, the White Noise was placed on top of the trooper from outside LoF, the Trooper would be allowed to declare Dodge at -3 due to being affected by a Template Weapon from outside LoF (same as dropping smoke on someone with a Speculative Attack). So is it affecting the enemy? Heck if I know.

    Bottom line is that Smoke (and Eclipse) have special rules to allow them to FtF despite being targetless and White Noise doesn't, so it doesn't get to FtF. Much like playing the game by intent, I find that CB tend to write "Rules by Intent" instead of ironclad interactions (which isn't helped by the need to translate them into English).
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    To repeat, White Noise is NOT a Template Weapon. As such it doesn't trigger a Dodge.

    There's no conflict about whether White Noise (the program) "affects" enemy Troopers: it doesn't.

    White Noise is closer to using a Deployable than it is Smoke in all ways other than creating a ZVZ and the fact it requires a roll. Like Place Deployable it is NEVER a FTF with anything.
     
    Hachiman Taro and ijw like this.
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    NO.

    Absolutely not.

    Pheroware Tactics: Mirrorball functions like Smoke/Eclipse because it's a weapon with Eclipse Ammunition.

    White Noise does not have an ammunition type, is not a template weapon, and the area of terrain that it creates is not on the board until the end of the Order, making it completely impossible for it to be a FtF Roll as LoF isn't being blocked in any way during the current Order.
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    4,262
    Likes Received:
    8,073
    I wish that White Noise were mechanically consistent with smoke and Mirrorball. However, the rules are very clear and unambiguous that it plays quite differently.
     
  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,555
    Likes Received:
    2,620
    Great, so yet another mechanical inconsistency for otherwise similar effects. Hmmmmm.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    I feel that if White Noise doesn't allow for FtF rolls, it should not require a roll, period. Especially without the ability to re-roll with an EVO hacking device, it can become dicey to put out with a couple bad rolls.
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    But it's not an otherwise similar effect. As inane.imp says it's more like a Deployable. All the other things being mentioned use Ammunition Types which specifically allow FtF Rolls.
     
  19. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    In the interaction it is exactly a "smoke/eclipse" that works specifically against Visors. Doesn't matter whether you throw or deploy it, doesn't matter if it's an Ammo type or a program. The similarity is about the interaction.

    "I create a Smoke Zero-Vis Zone and it breaks your LoF unless you have a Visor" = Face to Face!

    "I create an Eclipse Zero-Vis Zone and it breaks your LoF even if you have a Visor" = Face to Face!

    "I create a White Noise Zero-Vis Zone and it breaks your LoF as long as you have a Visor" = ... still Normal?

    That's what we're talking about. It's a huge inconsistency. They all should interact the same if the effect is a carbon copy of something else (Smoke / Eclipse) with a different limitation. White Noise should allow a "smodge".
     
    Savnock likes this.
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    That feels more like you're trying to create an equivalency that isn't there.

    "I create a Smoke Zero-Vis Zone that's specifically designed and explained as breaking your LoF in the current Order unless you have a Visor" = Face to Face!

    "I create an Eclipse Zero-Vis Zone that's specifically designed and explained as breaking your LoF in the current Order even if you have a Visor" = Face to Face!

    "I will create a White Noise Zero-Vis Zone which will block your LoF as long as you have a Visor" = ... still Normal?

    This is a bit like saying that because Intuitive Attack with a Template Weapon can result in a FtF, Intuitive Attack to place a Mine must result in a FtF.


    Regardless, the White Noise Hacking Program cannot stop incoming Attacks in the Order it's used.

    Edited for better formatting.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation