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How do you deal with mimetism?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Natsymir, Feb 24, 2021.

  1. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    The Charontid, seems the obvious answer, but he's an extremely expensive investment, and one can't always afford him in one's list.

    And this always gives me pause. Reviewing the other MSV troopers available to Combined, they all seem to have some critical weakness in winning those all-important long-range face to face rolls against entrenched ARO troopers with ODD (Mimetism-6).

    The Maakrep is too fragile against her main targets (snipers), and so it the Yaogat, who also can't have an HMG. Since they both lack shock immunity, all it takes is one failed roll against any shock weapon, and they're gone.

    The Haiduk is cheap, but his range is too short. Ko Dali can be useful, but is not for every game, due to her tricky airborne deployment; and taking down main enemy ARO pieces isn't really where she shines.

    All our other options are MSV1, which gets really dicey against stuff with Mimetism-6. Armand Le Muet is quite hard to kill though, and has a high BS, which are points in his favor. I've never actually tried him.

    The Overdron is great against things that combine mimetism and MSV, like Epsilon units and Intruders, due to his Albedo, but he really struggles against Mimetism-6 (though he might be able to grind it down. But again, you don't always wanna field such an expensive trooper).

    Are their other options that I'm overlooking?

    TLDR: Without a Charontid, how do I deal with long-range Mimetism-6 ARO threats?
     
    #1 Natsymir, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  2. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think you're undervaluing MSV1; I'd certainly rather have it than nothing when dealing with Mimetism(-6) enemies. It basically turns mimetism(-6) into mimetism(-3), and I'll shoot an enemy with mimetism(-3) with a non-visor troop if I have other factors in my favor.

    In addition to what you listed, there are a couple other options:

    Direct template weapons - mimetism doesn't matter if you don't have to roll to hit. Of course, you have to get close first, and long range ARO threats seems to be part of your focus.

    High mimetism of your own - the odds of nothing happening go up significantly, but something with mimetism(-6) facing off against an enemy without MSV equalizes the field. If you have the advantage in terms of range bands and burst, it can be effective, if slightly less efficient. Even more so if you were attacking from a marker state and get to factor surprise shot in as well.
     
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  3. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    True...I guess things like the Caliban with MSV1 and spitfire could be worth it. He just feels so fragile. A Grief operator might be worth trying, perhaps?


    What would be the best units for this tactic? I guess the Jayth with red fury would be pretty optimized, due to the combo of Mimetism-6 and MSV1. But I'd really prefer something with a longer range band...
     
  4. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I'd say avoid the ARO as much as possible and dismantle that fire team through other means. Brute forcing those hard AROs can be a pain and CA gets white noise and eclipse grenades, so you can often just block their LOF and maneuver into a more favourable position.

    Rasyats look amazing for this on paper, but I haven't tried them myself yet. They threaten a huge range of your enemy table half and will force them to deploy somewhat conservatively. When they get on the board, they don't care about getting isolated and also have stealth for good measure. With Eclipse smoke they have decent odds of getting their BSG template in range of that fire team.
     
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  5. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I've learnt that fireteams can't always be engaged on equal terms, but often it's not a fire team I struggle against, but things like Atalanta, a TR bot, a sniper with Mimetism-6, an Epsilon unit, or a powerful heavy infantry in suppressive fire, things I really want to have a straightforward, shooty solution against - or preferably even two. And I feel like the HMG selection in Combined isn't great, unless you're prepared to shell out 50+ points for it.
     
    #5 Natsymir, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The Noctifer Spitfire has always been one of my go-to troubleshooter models. It's get very few bad matchups, is aggressively priced, and has dogged in case your initial attack run fails.
     
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  7. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    To add some more general thoughts -

    The N4 Zerat is actually a really interesting model! If you passed over her in N2/N3 because she was statistically worse than the Shrouded in vanilla, give her a second look. A mimetism(-6) infiltrator with a Red Fury opens up some aggressive turn 1 plays if you have initiative.

    The Greif with MSV1, FD(8"), mimetism(-3), and a Shock Marksman Rifle is well positioned to clean up the enemy's midfield skirmishers by combining a visor with a longer-than-combi ranged weapon. Once that's done, you can start pressing on to some of their dedicated ARO pieces.

    I don't actually really like the Jayth; I think they're a bit expensive for what they offer. The Red Fury probably has the most general utility, however. MSV1 and mimetism(-6) gives you a lot of good matchups, but you're paying 8 points more for a Noctifer which has all the benefits that come with a marker state.
     
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  8. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I'm not sure there is that one solution in the <50 points segment but I have something silly for you instead:


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]3
    Q-DRONE Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 25)
    E-DRONE Combi Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 18)
    DROPSUIT TARYOT Boarding Shotgun / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
    1.5 SWC | 65 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Your Q-Drone will outshoot other Total Reaction REMs, especially with Assisted Fire enabled. It also has decent chances against B1 AROs like Epsilons and it does outrange units in Suppressive Fire. For anything it can't touch, drop the Taryot on top of it with controlled jump. Between the Explosion and the BSG templates, things will die, mimetism or not. It's a nice little package at 65 points with a good amount of utility and versatility. Remote Presence means you have multiple shots before they go down, and even then, dr. Worm or your Caliban can patch them right up.
     
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  9. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    I realized I could express my problem very differently:

    The main issue is that I want to run an Anthematic hacker, but he only has a plasma rifle, and given how often I find myself locked down by enemy long-range AROs, I now feel like I really want at least two reliable long range weapons in my lists. My main go to guys for such would be the Charontid or the Overdron, but both of those are really hard to afford when I run the Anathematic, and that leaves me with no idea what I should use instead, since the Combined armys selection of affordable HMGs and sniper rifles feel so lackluster. Sure, the Q-drone is an obvious go-to, but it frustrates me that he basically comes with an EVO tax of 18 pts. Those guys together are 2 orders for 43 points and 1,5 SWC, which incidentally is just one point less than the Suryat with HMG, Tinbot and TacAware...maybe he could be an option for me?

    Though sure, the Q-drone + EVO combo synergizes really well with the Anathematic, as we might wanna give him Fairy Dust, depending how strong the enemy hacking is.

    Is the Unidron Plasma Sniper really pointless in vanilla? People always say that, but I feel like he could be pretty effective when buffed by an EVO. He could outrange almost anything, and plasma ammunition is so brutal. He certainly can't go up against Mimetism-6 though.
     
    #9 Natsymir, Feb 24, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Ask an Ariadna player how much of an issue taking on Mimetism -6 ARO pieces without MSV2 is :P You don't necessarily have to use a long range weapon to counter a long range Mimetism ARO, in fact it's often better not to.

    Daturazi, drop smoke and ignore the ARO piece while you do the objective of murder other parts of the list, or get into CC tear them to shreds, or use the smoke to get your Anathematic close enough. You can yeet the smoke out with the Dat's impetuous order and they're just fantastic troopers against pretty much anything. They also combo really well with a Yoghurt or Maakrep as shooting through smoke allows them to pick a single target and makes attacking anything without 6th Sense much less of a gamble. A Speculo also brings smoke and can often place it on top of, or right in front of the ARO trooper without exposing themselves to the enemy, allowing them to go back into IMP state (or move up into the smoke and lightsaber the fool.)

    AD troopers with shotguns, DTWs don't care about their Mimetism and if they want to shoot you they'll eat two templates to the face, a worthy trade.

    Don't sleep on skirmishers like the Shrouded or Malignos either. You can Move-Move safely when they're in a marker state effectively giving you an 8" Cautious Move, and then drop a mine right in front of their ARO piece with the following order. That way they're forced to choose between Dodging the next attack or taking a mine to the face. Greif don't have mines but can start right next to the target and will be looking at burst 3 Breaker in good range bands.

    There's also Messer with his HD+, between his White Noise zones and Daturazi smoke grenades you don't necessarily need long range guns as you've got the tools to get shorter range units close.

    You can also try Bit+Kiss spewing Pitchers across the board, drop one nearby and Spotlight them with your Anathematic, that'll swing the odds in your favour.
     
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  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I see, and understand a lot better. Daturazi and Noctifer Spitfire have always been crutch models in my EI Aspect lists, and I don't really anticipate N4 changing that too much.

    Unidron plasma sniper is better in Onyx because of fireteams, but is still solid on vanilla, especially with supportware applied. Just don't expect it to do the same amount of work as when it's part of a 5-bot fireteam. It also dodges better now than it did in N3, which was one of the major weaknesses of Unidrons up close.
     
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  12. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Rasyats ARE amazing at dismantling fireteams. I've ran one with a spitfire now and it's just bogus how much murder he gets done. I specially like the spitfire over the shotgun because the longer range allows me to exploit entry points away from my target with their Parachutism. Oh, and a lot of the time the opponent will see the SWC gap and brace for a noctifer, so there's a psychological effect too.

    I've been dealing with mimetism by throwing a daturazi on their face. MSV+Mimetism usually get screwed by Kerr Nau or other white noise platforms.

    All in all, I think CA has such a vast toolbox at our disposal that we can deal with pretty much anything as long as we reach for the entire toolbox. I was struggling heavily with MSV models until one of my friends happily pointed out how many White Noise or Albedo platforms we have.
     
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  13. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    What do you guys think of the Yaogat sniper? He does get +1 burst, which is extremely lethal with a multi-sniper rifle, and he could outrange both TR bots and rocket launchers.

    And how would you rate the Suryat with HMG, tinbot and tactical awareness?

    both in the context of vanilla Combined, of course - I don't enjoy running link teams much.

    I'd also be interested in your opinion on the Haiduk with AP marksman rifle, the cheapest MSV2 in Combined.
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I haven't had a chance to really play N4, but the +1 B upgrade is pretty nice for the Yaogat and serves to differentiate it from the Maakrep (which has regeneration). I'll happily field a sniper haris in a sectorial, and at least in the active turn, the Yaogat brings that power level all by itself.

    Haiduk is weird, and I don't understand why it lost the sniper option in vanilla, nor why they took guided away from it and gave it to the Nox instead.
     
  15. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but I still feel like an MSV2 with a marksman range band (and AP + Shock) and Sapper to boot, for 22 pts ought to be a pretty good deal, yet people seem to rate the Haiduk very poorly.
     
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  16. Mustachio Furioso

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    You mention some of those things yourself, but then discount them.

    Ko Dali, for instance, is a perfect solution for enemy ARO pieces, as you can walk her in if appropriate or risk a drop if not. I actually particularly enjoy the infiltration version for the mimetism-3, since putting that in cover and supressive fire can be quite nasty.

    Then there's the Rasyat and Taryot, who can also quite easily take out enemy ARO pieces (especially those you describe).

    Speculo - This one goes without saying, since you can place it almost right next to said ARO pieces (and if you risk it, literally right next to it).

    In general:
    You dont need MSV to deal with mimetism. You dont even need to deal with ARO pieces, you can play around them most of the time. And finally, nothing comes without risk, and many of the things you presented as options statistically demolish mimetism ARO pieces. Yes, a single bad roll can screw you over, but if your whole plan is contingent on one roll, then something else is very wrong, and not the opponents mimetism ARO pieces.

    So, judging on how it seems you don't enjoy risk, I would say the best way of dealing with the opponents ARO is to not deal with it whenever possible, and make as few rolls as possible as well.
     
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