How would you fix [x]? Week 10: Al Fasid

Every time I've taken the Ayyar, for some reason I think it has super jump and forward deployment. Then I'm horribly underwhelmed when I re-read the profile.

I like the 6-2 idea, and would pair it with those skills mentioned above to fill a really sweet niche of FD combat specialist with mobility.

I dislike the approaches that up-gun the model. Shooting good is the Asawira or Shujae's territory, and I'd prefer to keep the Ayyar distinct.

To go out on a limb, added CC would make the viral pistols really interesting.

 

I know you just said vanilla was out of bounds, but it’s kind of important for context. Combined Army has a 14 point price floor for models that aren’t support REMs, and we need to look at the Vanguard relative to the others.

Nox have ridiculous template weapons, Unidrons have dogged + G:RP along with rather punchy weaponry, and Daturazi are very skilled and efficient regular warbands. Vanguards need something other than Religious Troop to set them apart. They need something that makes you want to take them.

The K1 sniper has been analyzed to death, and it’s very lacking against targets that don’t start with high ARM. It did get a price cut and damage boost in N4, and it’s probably almost usable... except it’s still stuck on a kind of overpriced boring LI body.

I have tried the 1 Suryat and 4 Vanguards fireteam and it just doesn’t work for me. Just one HI point model isn’t enough redundancy for me, and Vanguards eat up too many points for what they actually bring to the table. I’d rather just take Rodoks, Yaogats, or a pure Suryat Haris.

 

First of all, I feel that the K1 sniper should be DAM 14.

I agree with @toadchild that Vanguards need some sort of capability that the other CA line infantry don't have, and that doesn't step on the toes of the other Morat fireteam options. A direct template weapon (chain-colts?) would be ok. Different enough from a Zapper that it isn't stepping on the Nox's toes, and obviously still different from Unidrons.

 

Vanguards can’t form a Haris, so I assume you’re talking about a 3-member Core. It means you’re forfeiting the full fireteam bonuses existing in your list at all. I haven’t really played around much (in any army) with the “double-haris” archetype.

The proposed FT: Core is 79 points

A true Haris with Suryat HMG, Raktorak NCO, and Anyat is 92, and if you downgrade to the HRL in order to get smoke/MSV synergy, it’s 83.

 

I don't think Vanguards are in a dire spot. They cost very similar to Celestial Guard and their application is much like Celestial Guard fairly niche, but their average performance is a lot better with Veteran actually mattering, the much higher PH making a difference, and a Heavy Pistol is an asset worth considering for a unit that's not likely to hog orders. Veteran is huge in this edition for a hacker and the K1 Sniper at DAM 13 is good against its intended targets and reasonable against others when you consider that it costs less SWC than a Multi Sniper.
The fact that they have access to a HMG (with a heavy pistol) and a paramedic profile means they'll never be irrelevant.

I think the big issue with Vanguards is their role in the force they are in. Order generator. At 14 points that's a very difficult task. I just don't see a way to improve them if their cost is meant to be kept at roughly 14 without drastically changing their role and skewing their equipment - because their issue is their cost.
Well... their cost and player perception.

 

Given that impetuous is now always optional, they face increasingly stiff competition from Daturazi for order generation and corner guarding. There are a lot of scenarios where it's a lot more intimidating to try and sneak up on a model with a chain rifle and martial arts than it is to sneak up on a model with a combi rifle.

 

In vanilla, you could say they compete with Nox, Datz and Unidrons as cheerleaders, but I'm of the opinion that none of these options save the Datz stand a chance when compared with Ikadrons, R-Drone and Imetrons. In MAF I don't know them that well, but multiple MAF players have told me that "the less vanguards you take, the better the list will be". As a vanilla only player I will be looking at Vanguard from that perspective. Most of the adjustments I can think of simply put them into "sectorial-only" territory, like the various non-SWC armed Rodoks and other link team fillers. But these are ones that I think might give them some utility in vanilla.

One thing I've advocated for in the past is to give them LT (0.5 SWC) or a LT-adjacent skill like +1 command token etc. I strongly dislike the idea of 0 SWC as this limitation is something vanilla CA is designed for, so 0.5 SWC seems to be a nice middle ground. They are currently the only line trooper LT option, but that doesn't mean much when they are both bad and an expensive LT. Letting them be one of the few non-Aspect, non-1 SWC LTs is a useful niche they can fill and gives them relevance in a world of Datz and REM cheerleaders.

Another option would be gear and skills related. Specifically template related gear - Combi+LSG, mines or grenades helps give them a niche even when compared to an EM template Nox. The no-fucking-around element of the fluff that I recall lends them quite well to using effective things such as mines. Marksmanship would be an option too - that heavy pistol is much more interesting when its essentially got shotgun rangebands for corner defense. They would still have to cost 14 points so dunno what change would happen there (I vote just fuck the point formula personally)

A third option is forward deployment 4". I don't recall all of their fluff, but the Vanguard is typically a first wave, front of the army force which could justify them deploying forwards. Cheerleaders that don't clog your DZ are pretty sweet, but this one would need to be combined with gear options to have an impact IMO.

Edit: For what its worth, that Aida thread isn't really talking about how to change her, but rather how to use her as-is in Druze sectorial.

 

Yeah, actually, fuck it, give them FD +8". It'd be balanced, as long as none of the other things that can jump in a fireteam with them have it.

 

FD would at least qualify as interesting and would fill a unique niche. If nothing else, it lets a cheap-ish specialist start an order closer to an objective, which has value even in vanilla.

They got a couple upgrades in the N4 transition to reflect the new points while keeping them at 14, (BTS 3, Heavy Pistol), but nothing that really enabled a new playstyle or niche.

 

But does the basic line infantry really need a new niche that would arguably by intruding on the niche of the Krakot Renegades and at the expense of more key troopers? Would Morat as a sectorial actually benefit from this? Would the game benefit from having the points formula trashed even further? Vanguards (and Kurgats) already are one point cheaper than the point formula for other religious troopers allow this edition (heavy pistol doesn't seem to cost points on any profile that I've found).

What I'm saying is that base line infantry are equally terrible for many factions and as a faction design that's just fine provided the faction offers exciting stuff elsewhere - and it seems like Morat aren't meant to have exciting basic infantry.

 

I couldn't care less what needs to happen to make the concept of the Morat Sectorial worthwhile in Infinity, but it needs to happen for all the suboptimal choices that aren't gambling the formula to get ahead of the curve.

 

Sure, and see also that there’s an entire thread about how LI SWC boxes aren’t worthwhile purchases. You’re right that some of these concerns are universal, but Vanguards are expensive LI in an expensive army, and are significantly less attractive in their own sectorial than the other equally priced core trooper options.

 

I think you have to post ITT on the assumption that what is being fixed that week is actually in need of a fix.

The viewpoint that Vanguards are crap, but all the other LI are crap too so lets just all have crappy profiles in our armies, isn't a very convincing argument for me personally.

Re: stepping into the Krakot's niche, the Datz already did that pretty hard. I think its more important for faction units to get these niches than mercenary units. As an example, I don't think the presence of say, Le Meut, would be a viable argument to not give a faction a strong ODD based sniper overwatch unit if that is something that would benefit them or 'fix' a profile.

 

The problem is that whether a unit needs to be good is absolute hog. They don't. I'd even argue there is a need for units to be crap (provided there is a niche for them where they provide a benefit that is necessary). Not only that, but whether a unit is good or bad depends on how many units they are better or worse than, adjusted for price - so you're always going to have bad units. The big issue is that by accepting that Vanguards are bad means that most basic line infantry needs to be improved as well, because most basic line infantry are worse, and at some point we're going to improve the crappiest units in the game so much that other units that are meant to be better than them starts feeling crappy. You just can't buff everything until everything is good, regardless of what gamers say.

And I get it, people don't like how Morats play, I'm not gonna say they are wrong, but it's not at fault of the Vanguards. Since Morats are designed to run with order generators that are very costly and to have a very elite kind of feel, then more likely the issue is with basically all other Morat units (except the Raicho, because damned is the Raicho good.)
Or that Vanguards aren't allowed to be as crappy as they need to be in order to race against Fusiliers to the bottom.

So the only way I can see Vanguards actually realistically "improve" is to nerf PH, get rid of the fancy pistols, remove the BTS, reduce the BS, and - stop me when I'm describing a Veteran Moderator... There's only so much you can fudge the point system before the game turns into Warhammer's balance (and the race to purchase the latest release).

 

I don't actually disagree with most of this, it's just not very conducive to a thread in which we discuss fixing units - to have that discussion, you need to agree (or agree for the sake of argument) that the units require a fix.

Also, though its more subjective, I don't personally feel that 'crap line infantry' is the sort of role that needs to exist in MAF or especially vanilla CA. For example, back when the Zerat was crap, it was necessary, because MAF needed some access to a midfield button pusher. but not good access - I agree with the core logic there. Theres certainly an argument that MAF could be designed with the idea of having access to a crappy Line Troop, but its not an interesting place for MAF to be - so I would prefer that we designed that line troop to do something interesting. Likewise, Line Troops in CA are not meant to be the workhorse of the faction, but we clearly have one option that's extra garbage amongst the several Line Trooper representatives that vanilla has available - so I would like that it had something to distinguish itself as a possible option there too.

 

You wanna fix Vanguards?

Make them MOV4-2 MI with ARM3. There. Fixed.

Not joking. Higher armor at a cheap cost would go a long way in making them useful. Lower movement would make them more defensive, and at 14 points a pop for 3 ARM it would make them feel like worth taking even in vanilla.

 

I think that would be potentially compelling, especially if they kept the N4 buff to their BTS. ARM 3, BTS 3 is decent protection from a bunch of vectors.

 

So monkey shaped USARF Grunts then?