So Corregidor, Invincible Army, and White Banner sectorials all have the option to link a wildcard with a Tinbot to a TAG. They can also all run double TAG Duos. N4's Pilot rules are...let's say a little hazy about how membership in a fireteam interacts with a dismounted Pilot. I bet you can guess where this is going. GŪIJIĂ MULTI Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 82) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Submachine Gun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 0) SHÀNG JÍ MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 38) GŪIJIĂ MULTI Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 82) GŪIJIĂ PILOT Submachine Gun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 0) TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39) BLUE WOLF AP Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 71) BLUE WOLF PILOT Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 0) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) GECKO MULTI Marksman Rifle(+1B), Chain Rifle, Panzerfaust / CC Weapon. (1 | 56) GECKO PILOT Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 0) MOBILE BRIGADA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 39) GECKO Mk12, Chain Rifle, Blitzen / CC Weapon. (0.5 | 51) GECKO PILOT Combi Rifle / Assault Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 0) EVADER (Engineer) AP Spitfire, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit, TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34) The above are all valid Duos for their respective sectorials, and all of them link the TAG with a Tinbot: Firewall model. When the Pilot of the TAG dismounts, one of these situations happens, but for the life of me I'm not sure which one: A: The Pilot is not the TAG, and the Duo persists. The Pilot is just an additional trooper that appears on the board and doesn't generate any Orders. They aren't part of the Duo in any way, are totally separate for the purposes of being activated by Order expenditure, can participate in Coordinated Orders without affecting the Duo, and don't benefit from the Tinbot. The Duo remains as long as the wildcard is within ZoC of the inert TAG model, but the inert TAG just Idles any time the wildcard trooper is the link leader and performs a Skill, and the inert TAG may not be the link leader or ARO. B: The Pilot is not the TAG, and the Duo breaks if the wildcard is activated by an Order. As above, but because the inert TAG can't spend Orders or AROs, if you give an Order to the wildcard you have to break the link at that time since the TAG can't "spend Orders or AROs" per the Pilot rule. If you want to maintain the link, the wildcard is effectively inert too. This is basically the same as "A" except that it has a stricter reading of the Pilot rule, in that the TAG can't even be part of a link that has been given an Order, rather than just not being able to be the link leader. This is probably a more accurate representation of the way Orders are spent on/by a Fireteam. However, the fact that the link leader can use NCO to "spend" a LT Order argues for the interpretation that the link leader is the one "spending" the Order, which is why "A" above is plausible—inert TAGs are prohibited from spending Orders, not from being in a link. C: The Pilot is the TAG and both are in the Duo with the wildcard. The Pilot is just a second model representing the TAG, and using different stats. The Pilot is now part of a three-model Duo where one model can only Idle during Orders and can't ARO. The Pilot still benefits from the Tinbot. It's really unclear what happens if the Pilot and wildcard move away and break coherency with the TAG model, but presumably it just leaves the Fireteam, and the Pilot and wildcard are now a free-range Duo that can't be re-formed if broken until the Pilot returns to the TAG. D: The Pilot is the TAG and both are in the Duo with the wildcard, but it breaks if activated. This is just "C" but with the stricter interpretation of inert TAGs in a fireteam as per "B." If the Pilot and wildcard ARO, the TAG model is kicked out because it can't, but the Duo persists with the other two models. If the models don't ARO then they're stuck in a fireteam that can't do anything. E: The Pilot is the TAG and the TAG gets kicked. The Pilot is a second model representing the TAG, but since Duo is capped at two troopers and the Pilot is now the active profile for the second trooper in the Duo, the inert TAG is kicked out of the Fireteam despite still being a model on the table. When the Pilot re-mounts, the TAG model resumes being the active profile for the same trooper, and is in the Fireteam again. This interpretation is roughly analogous to a Tohaa Triad where one member loses its Symbiont and so changes profiles, but remains in the Fireteam. Because the TAG has effectively become deployed Equipment, it can't logically be in a Fireteam, much less a Duo. That's everything I can think of. Of the lot of those, I think I like "A" or "E" the most. Both should play relatively cleanly, and don't run into weird complications or result in unintuitive interactions. In the case of "A" the wildcard can effectively stand guard over the inert TAG, providing firewall protection and declaring Orders to either attack enemies or use Engineer to repair the TAG while the Pilot is off on a walkabout. If/when the Pilot comes back, the Duo is ready to resume action without the use of a Command Token. If the wildcard has to run off somewhere, the Duo breaks because of established Fireteam Cancellation rules around coherency. In the case of "E" the inert TAG is getting the short end of the stick, but there are the fewest complicated interactions with other rules. It also plays cleanly if the TAG is later destroyed, allowing the wildcard to continue escorting the Pilot. This has most likely come up for Nomad players who run multiple Geckos, and I'm curious about how you've played it when one Pilot in a Gecko Duo dismounts to push a button or something.
I can see nothing in the pilot rules that would cause the TAG with a dismounted Pilot to interact differently with Fireteams compared to a Motorcycle with a dismounted rider or a Transmutation unit that has Transmuted. The TAG profile and the Pilot profile are both the same trooper, measure and interact with the active profile as point of reference. So... none of A to E F: A TAG is a unit with multiple profiles, use the TAG's active profile for activation and coherency checks. Coherency is checked after first skill declaration, so if you declare a Move to dismount you place the pilot on the table and measure coherency with the pilot as reference and before you move the pilot. P.s. you forgot the Haris Xeodrons 'cause if you want a real headache you need to consider Remote Pilots
RAW there's a bunch of stuff that's not defined at all. There simply is no answer to "does the Pilot inherit the Link when dismounting?". I'd suggest going by Pilots can't be in a Duo because they do not have the Fireteam Duo Skill. Only the TAG itself has. So there's no way for the TAG to leave the Link without breaking it and no way for the Pilot to join the Link without Duo, which the Wildcard doesn't have. You can argue that you can work around that since the Trooper never changes only the Troop Profile does if you want. Going by the Duo requirements the TAG stays in the Link when the Pilot dismounts. There's no further state applied to a Dismounted TAG, it can simply no longer spend Orders until their Pilot is on board again. "A Vehicle or TAG whose Pilot is Dismounted cannot spend Orders or AROs using their Vehicle or TAG Unit Profile" Unless you break coherency I don't see a reason why the TAG's Duo would break. Note: The Dismounted TAG does not even Idle when other Link members Activate, it can't spend Orders at all. Spending Orders is what triggers Activation.
+1 for check Coherency with the active profile, in exactly the same way a Duo of Bikes would function. Although I agree with Teslarod that the rules don’t adequately deal with this. Can’t you measure the Movement from the TAG? IE. either A. declare Move, Dismount, Place Pilot, Measure Coherency to Pilot, Measure Move, move Pilot B. declare Move, Dismount, Measure Coherency to TAG, Measure Move from TAG, move Pilot This is based on the assumption that measuring for dismounting a TAG and dismounting a Motorcycle works the same way: “When a Trooper on a Motorcycle declares any Skill with the Movement Label and announces he will Dismount, replace the mounted figure with a Motorcycle Token (MOTORCYCLE). Place the Trooper's Model in Silhouette contact with the Motorcycle Token, or measure his movement from the edge of the Token's base, as you prefer.”
That’s “E” with differently worded reasoning. Unfortunately, motorcycles are a bad comparison; prior comments by IJW indicate that the TAG-Pilot relationship isn’t a good comparison with motorcycles. The Transmutation profile change is sort of closer, but not really? It’s why I mentioned Tohaa above, though. The question hinges on what exactly an inert TAG actually is in game terms. It’s still a Trooper as far as we know, it just can’t “spend” Orders or AROs. It doesn’t stop being a Trooper, which is in line with RemPres TAGs being able to Reset out of having a disabled REMPilot. It’s valid (if weird) to assume that the TAG is a single Trooper with multiple bodies, sort of like an Antipode pack or Puppetbot troupe, but the rules don’t explain how that would work because Pilot Skill =/= Peripheral. Add this to the list of annoying ambiguities about TAG Pilots that already exists? Edit: I really really really really want CB to revise the Pilot skill to work like Motorcycles, treat Pilots as the actual Trooper who generates an Order (but doesn’t have TA while dismounted, so no bonus order at order count), and turn REMPilots into a new Peripheral sub-skill since they already sort of are. Escape System really ought to be Transmutation (Escape System) since that’s how it works anyway. It would be cool if you could park a manned TAG in suppression and then hop the Pilot out to do things, but that’s probably too much to ask. Getting them to work like Zondnautica and become G:Sync bots with worse BS and WIP would also be cool and flavorful. Either would help make up for no repair re-rolls.
To the first point, having Duo/Haris/Triad/Enomotarchos only matters for forming the Fireteam. Once formed it persists until cancelled, even if the sole member with the appropriate Skill dies or ARO-ejects from the team. If the Pilot is the same trooper but a different profile, they should logically not get kicked from the fireteam. For that matter, kicking the Pilot and not kicking the TAG is weird if they’re the same trooper, and dismounting in coherency doesn’t fulfill any of the clauses for cancelling the FT or ejecting the Pilot from it. But having a single trooper with one model and profile in the FT and one outside it is...well, weird. To the second point, Yes, and also what about NCO? The FT rules are a bit hazy about whether the whole team “spends” the Order or whether it’s just the link leader. The rule for NCO basically implies that the link leader spends the Order, but it’s possible that that only applies when NCO is being used and the whole link spends a regular Order in unison.
Not aware of IJW's reasoning there, though I agree that due to how deep the Pilot skill alters the relationship between vehicle and pilot it is not an equivalent comparison (if it were, after all, they'd have the same skill that enables switching troop profiles). My F and your E are very different. Your E treats the TAG as a separate unit from the Pilot when you kick it from the Fireteam. Yes, my F does mean the dismounted TAG will continue to enjoy the effects of the Tinbot regardless of distance to the Fireteam - but this is no different from a unit that declines to activate ARO so as to avoid having to make a Coherency Check. Peripherals are the least similar troop type in Infinity, other than civilian, that I can think of... I'd say it's fairly safe to remove B through E from the list of possibilities, but I can see a reasoning where A is correct and I'm not married to the idea that F is the only possible correct interpretation - but basically only because of the additional line written outside the typical rules area saying the pilot is a trooper aboard the TAG. It's a shame they seem to have wanted the TAG to be The Thing so they didn't want the Pilot to be more than a liability since if it is the Pilot generating orders then the Pilot is The Thing so they never really made the TAG rules very logical as a result... It's a shame that Fireteam isn't a Game State, then it'd have been easier :)
Well hence the RAW there's a bunch of stuff that's not defined at all. There simply is no answer to "does the Pilot inherit the Link when dismounting?". Could be you inherit the Link, could be you don't. Can't find any rule reference to answer the question so I don't and assume a Duo Link works like a Link and has the two members it was formed with. You don't get to increase the body count of Link members anywhere else outside of reforming or "recollecting" former members start of turn. On the second point: Fireteam Activation in the Active Turn During the Active Turn, all the Fireteam members are activated with a single Regular Order from the Order Pool of their Combat Group. "A Vehicle or TAG whose Pilot is Dismounted cannot spend Orders or AROs using their Vehicle or TAG Unit Profile." No exception for NCO or Tac Awareness, it's still the Fireteam spending the Order not any individual: "If the owner of this Special Skill belongs to a Fireteam and is designated as the Team Leader, this Special Lieutenant Order can be used to activate the Fireteam." "In addition, if the owner of this Special Skill belongs to a Fireteam and is designated as the Team Leader, this Order can be used to activate the Fireteam." If you really want to you can interpret this as a full bypass of the restriction, "I'm Activating the Fireteam not the TAG", and the TAG can be Activated fully and without restrictions in a Fireteam on the Active turn - but still not in ARO, which individual for each trooper. Pretty safe to assume that's not how that works though, regardless of being part of a Fireteam the TAG still cannot spend Orders. That should probably kick the TAG out of the Fireteam when the Link activates, but currently doesn't. Messy interactions everywhere.
For Motorcycle, you’ve got one trooper that switches between two profiles, emitting or consuming an inert game piece as it does so. I think it’s a lot safer to regard the Pilot as subsidiary to the TAG for manned TAGs. I haven’t looked closely at the interactions yet, but I’ve got a feeling “Declare an order following all of the rules for fireteams, and pilots” is going to lead to a lot of situations where you’re going to just want to dissolve the fireteam.
