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Scoring in Firefight

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Hecaton, Feb 15, 2021.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Just had a game where the following sequence of events happened:

    1. I knocked my opponent's lieutenant unconscious with a BS attack
    2. He entered his next turn in LoL
    3. He had a doctor bring his former lieutenant back to consciousness
    4. His turn ended and he chose a new lieutenant
    5. I knocked his original lieutenant unconscious again.

    Do I get to count his original lieutenant as dead for scoring purposes?
     
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Killing and Lts remains unhelpfully worded.

    Generally if I'm ruling on it:

    If the model WAS a Lt during the game, and ends the game in a null state - that counts as a kill. This is also relatively simple to cross check at end of game.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I treat it the same as for army points killed at the end of the game, needs to be in a null state at the end of the game to count.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think you're understanding my question.
     
  5. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    He does. He's saying it's not whether LTs are conscious/alive -during- the game that matters, it's whether they are down at the end of the game. And each only counts once.
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Essentially yes. The mission objective was to assassinate or remove command capable enemy assets. If they aren't rendered combat ineffective by the end of the mission then the mission objective was failed.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, but if you follow the sequence I put at the top of the thread, that wasn't in question.
     
  8. deathklockk

    deathklockk Strange, but not a stranger.

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    For Firefight you do not go into LoL state if you lose your Lt.

    Also, for "Killed" it states going into Dead state or Null state at end of game. You wouldn't get points for an It brought back from Unconscious state, even if you killed them after they were no longer It.
     
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  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes you do. You're thinking of Decapitation.


    Yes your question was answered. No, you don't get to count the LT. It's not dead according to the "Killing" paragraph in the mission entry (which is the same as how army points killed objectives are treated, doctoring shit stops you from scoring).
     
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  10. deathklockk

    deathklockk Strange, but not a stranger.

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    You'd better tell the wiki then...


    If players lack a Lieutenant at the start of the Tactical Phase of their Active Turn because this Trooper was not deployed or because it is in a Null state (Unconscious, Dead…), then they must name a new Lieutenant, without Order expenditure. The identity of this new Lieutenant is also Open Information. It is compulsory such Lieutenant be a Model or a Marker placed on the game table.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The wiki is quoting the rulebook firefight, I believe that one is different. I'm fairly sure Hecaton is asking about the ITS firefight.
     
  12. deathklockk

    deathklockk Strange, but not a stranger.

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    Weird that they would be different.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The part you're missing is where it's Unconscious (in a Null State) at the end of the game, as per point 5.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Oh, my bad so I did. In that case yes it's null state so it counts as dead and scores.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's not exactly clear, though, since it's not the Lieutenant at that point (nor at the point it entered a Null State for the second time).
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well, regardless of the doctor getting involved if the model is unconscious and not dead, if you're checking via "Killing" paragraph for unconscious for scoring at the end of the game any LT that went unconscious on turn 1 or 2 isn't an LT at the end of the game and wouldn't count for scoring. It'd be stupid to try and read it that literally, so I'd suggest applying some common sense to the situation.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't there a more recent ruling that said basically; if the unit was an LT when it entered the state that caused it to pass to Dead, it counts.

    (Difference being that in Hecaton's example the original LT wouldn't count)
     
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  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Maybe briefly? But that practically didn't work so was either retracted or our group just didn't use it until it disappeared.

    That also provides a means to deny points by healing a downed lt which are then functionally impossible to gain again. Which while it could be a intended mechanic, I don't think it is within the context of the missions that have it.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So? If the LT gets doctored you'll have denied the point anyway because the unit won't be dead at the end of the game, and being able to kill it again for scoring purposes is weird bookkeeping and treats LTship as a plague of sorts.
    My memory tells me it was this that briefly for like half a season before N4 made EXO temporarily playable in Decapitation provided you gained LT before the previous LT was downed (even if CoC was and is still hazardous in that mission).
     
  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    At the end of the game, count the number of models that are dead that were, at some point during the game, a lieutenant.
     
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