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The writing on the wall for Line Infantry

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Triumph, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Soooo.... when was the last time you saw one of these carrying an SWC weapon?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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    It's been a fucking long time for me. They were already rare, and N4 cutting model counts and making budget links far less desirable and introducing more premium wildcard ARO options such as Grenzers, Bolts, and wildcard HI like Haidao and ORCs getting cheaper has just made it even less desirable to pick up line infantry ARO weapons. Meanwhile more factions are starting to get the option for their missile REMs to enter links as well. Why pay 16pts to put a Zhanshi ML in a link when I can pay the exact same for a Son-Bae that comes with +1 BS, courage, guided fire, and all the benefits attached to Remote Presence?

    Indeed I have Zhanshi ML/MSR models sitting on my desk right now. I started painting them right before IA was spoiled, and then realised I'd never use them because of the Son Bae. They've been sitting on my desk half painted since then.

    There are some exceptions to the rule. A few factions have very outdated rigid fire teams that don't allow for the current meta which is large amounts of wildcards to fill pointman and premium ARO roles in their links. JSA is a pretty good example of a faction you could make an argument their line infantry SWC box sees use but it's from a standpoint of them being behind the times more than anything else.

    REMs like Dakinis are arguably still viable but they're buffable which really sets them apart. A Dakini as an effective BS17 mimetic HMG in a link is still able to be quite dangerous vs its cost.

    For the most part though alot of line infantry SWC feel like an absolute waste of retail shelf space. This just feels too expensive to justify as a primary weapon, or even a backup plan C gunfighter:

    [​IMG]1
    ZHANSHI Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 19)

    1 SWC | 19 Points

    If I've got 8 spare points I'd rather pay for a Paramedic Zhanshi to pick up my HI over an HMG one. Hell, you could make that HMG Zhanshi cost the same as the Paramedic and cost 0 SWC and I'd still pick the Paramedic for my links before I considered the HMG option.

    I think it's probably time that we bit the bullet and accepted that most of the basic Line Infantry SWC weapons are badly overcosted in light of modern fireteams that are full of wildcards. As far as pointman Line Infantry I honestly think most of them should be paying <15 points for their HMG/Spitfires and no SWC. Using them to fight these days is an absolute act of desperation anyway, additionally the game could use more cheap ways to spend the last 2-5 errant points in a list upgrading things beyond just spamming 4 of the same specialist into a link because I often can't just add a Warcor or Palbot anymore.

    As far as ARO Line Infantry go I think the ML/MSRs could all stand to come down a few points as well, as well as go down to 0.5 SWC. It feels absolutely stupid to consider paying the same SWC to pick up one of those weapons for a BS10-12 chucklefuck when he's supposed to be even a remote consideration stacked up against a Grenzer or Kamau.
     
    #1 Triumph, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  2. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    Just a week ago I played a game where we hade made a conscious decision to make the whole primary combat group of both players consist entirely of line infantry. It was a glorious bloodbath of Caledonian Volunteers versus JSA Keisotsus.

    In games competitive lists, not so much, although I have been toying with the idea of a cheap throwaway core from time to time...
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I take HMG and Sniper grunts in my core fireteam as a backup to the Minuteman AP HMG pretty frequently.
     
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  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    USARF would be one of the JSA like situations where their fireteams/options are more rigid and arguably largely behind the times/power curve.

    I mean what else were you planning to spend that SWC on given you can't have more than one Minuteman? Blackjacks?
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Infiltrating Grunts, the AP Spitfire Airborne... there's some other options.

    Given that I can plug the UKR into the fireteam, as well as have HFT duded in it to act as defenders, it doesn't seem behind the times at all. BS 13 MSV 1 Mimetism -3 AP Spitfire w/ Tac Awareness in a 5-strong core fireteam is great.

    Ironically I think imma try using the sniper Blackjack in Panic Room, I think it might be useful coming up.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    • The bad: Multi Snipers, Spitfires and Missile Launchers simply eat too much SWC for those profiles. They all need to drop 0,5 SWC on stuff that doesn't have Mimetism or other highly synergistic skills.
    • The ugly: Grenade Launchers does have utility, but the game is scamming me on their price considering how poorly they perform even in a Fireteam. Either the points cost or the SWC cost needs to go.
    • The mediocre: HMG usually perform quite well for a sub-20 unit, but most lists just don't need one or are improved more by a TR REM with the same gun.
    • The good: Snipers, Hackers and Smoke Grenade Launchers are good. Never auto-include, but the low cost and high utility means you'll probably have a good spot for them in at least one of your two lists.

    Ghulam NCO Smoke/Normal Grenade Launcher is insane how good it is, in spite of the 1 whole SWC. It's the most complete toolbox you'll find below 20 and any sectorial where they can form a link will see value from these. Yes, there's plenty of units that are a lot better, but they don't cost you 15 points!
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Just a clarification, I'm not including the Smoke Grenade profiles in this rant if that was unclear.
     
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  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    There are a couple possible solutions for the problem and none of them is gonna happen in N4.
    • Weapon cost could scale properly with who is carrying it. Paying the same 8 points for a HMG on a HI with better BS is just never gonna let the LI compete. This one is the easiest fix, we pay for whole Profiles anyway, it doesn't makes clicking a list any harder than it already is. Problem here is that scaling in between gun choices is already in single point distance. That breaks if you rebate gun costs.

    • SWC weapons could cost 0 points and only SWC. Requires extensive rework of what costs SWC and how much. At the end of the day it would allow to spend leftover SWC to add in SWC gus on Linetroopers, if you don't have a better chassis left or can't afford the higher SWC cost on a better chassis with what you have left.

    • Rework Link bonuses to only provide full Link bonuses to the native troop type for the Link. i.e. the Brigada HMG in a Alguacile 5 man still gets 3 and 4 man bonus, but only Alguaciles can get full 5 man bonus.
    None of those solutions are easy or finished, introduce their own set of problems and challenges and don't work in the framework N4 has set up.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's fine. There's little to rant about with them except maybe how inept they are when they're not in a Fireteam, but I felt as long as I'm ranking them I might add all potential ones I am aware of.

    By the way, I don't think I'll ever touch any part of the Keisotsu SWC toolset outside of the Lieutenant. The hacker is just too poorly supported with too low WIP to be worth it now that they can't buff the REMs, and the HMG and Missile Launcher is a terrible shot that I consider work arounds to the factions being low on long range options to be preferable.
    Ghulam and Zhanshi HMGs have salvaged games for me in the past, though, courtesy of being somewhere in the middle of my opponent's priority list.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    USARF is behind the times because of how limited their special link options are

    Compare this:

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    To other factions

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    USARF really just got left behind in terms of flexible link options. Two wildcards, and they're both one of a kind characters with super limited profile options.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Triumph that sounds like circular reasoning.
     
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  12. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I did a breakdown of link options across most of the game's factions the other day, and IMO Ikari's link choices are in the running for the flat-out worst in the game right now, in terms of flexibility and options. If you're running a Keisotsu Core you can add one Tanko and one Brawler (woo?). You can stick a Daiyokai and a Brawler (gee whiz) in a Tanko Haris. You can bring a Druze Haris with a Clipper. You can stuff a Clipper and a lone Brawler in a Wu Ming Core or Haris. You have Brawler, Druze, Tanko, ABH, and Krakot + Kendrat for your Duo choices I guess. There are zero wildcards and all two (2) of the LT options are bad.

    Merovingia and USARF also have a rough time of it. Invincibles and Corregidor are bonkers in terms of link versatility.

    That's probably my favorite solution proposed so far to the "fireteam broken, send help" issue of wildcards that make line troopers into buffbots. Would also accept capping the effect of the full Core bonus at an effective BS 15 (so +3 bonus for troopers with BS 12 or lower, +2 for troopers with BS 13, and +1 for troopers with BS 14) before other BS MODS are applied.
     
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  13. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    Keeping line trooper as they currently are might be desirable in the context of 200 point games being a real thing. In that context they are more attractive due to low cost.

    That being said I never liked paying 1.5 swc for a line troops Multi sniper or missile launcher in N3.
     
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  14. miguelbarbo84

    miguelbarbo84 Well-Known Member

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    I'd go for the link rework, given CB is already considering modifications to link teams rules independently of the general ones.

    And N4 is being played so little that some shake-up can't be that bad.

    I think cheap Wildcards to lower big links' costs make sense, but not the other way around. Some more cheap fillers could be added here and there if needed, and I would say that's mainly where internal balance gets screwed.

    When considering faction balance, which ones would you guys say suffer the most with this kind of change?
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    The PanO Sectorials. They're basically married to the Fusilier Fireteam with Wildcard MSV/Mimetism guy, and the faction's competitive viability would fall through the floor without that crutch unless CB pull their finger out and give the faction an actual point outside of TAG skew lists.

    A point I feel isn't made enough is that the Fireteam rules are actually very well balanced assuming everything in the link is in the same price bracket. Another pass on the Sectorial Special Fireteams charts by someone who understands the concept of restraint would fix much of the current nonsense.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well... sort of. If we look at units that don't have Frenzy or Impetuous where the mixed Fireteam optimisation is built in with a huge discount per miniature. There's also a style of unit that don't have the "skirmishing" type of equipment where the fireteams get so prohibitively expensive that it makes the list unworkable - let's call them 40-plus-for-a-combi (40+FC).
    I'd argue that as long as the miniature is linking within one price bracket it's fine, though loadouts like the Kamau sniper is occupying a points bracket above its own unit.

    I do think you're not giving the Zulu Cobra enough credit here, but yes, I agree, Pan-O sectorials are probably hit hardest by alterations to Fireteam bonuses. I do still think it's worth it, even if it might force CB to reconsider how a range of sectorials are designed. It's not like vanilla vs vanilla game play is bad, on the contrary I think vanilla vs vanilla is the most fun you can have in Infinity.
    Facing a Pan-O or Pan-O style sectorial is after all the reason why I keep picking sectorials of my own with a strong tendency to pick linked HMG so that I can brute force those highly difficult ARO threats...
     
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  17. SpectralOwl

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    Is there anything that still costs that much? Closest I can find is the Shang-Ji, who can bring a MULTI Rifle and a heap of TacAware, or some of the Knights who'd be about that cost without Frenzy.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There's a bunch that would cost 40 or 50 points if they were not artificially (in their sectorials) discounted; Hospitaller, Asawira, Domaru (probably). But otherwise, yeah, it's Shang-ji and Crane. I do think I'm using N3 points scale for reference, though.

    But mostly, I mean that a Shang-Ji linking with Zuyong is reasonable while Zhanshi is questionable, Suryat linking with Yaogat would've been reasonable but is questionable with Vanguards, etc. - with the current bonuses.
    If, say, they removed the BS and B bonuses and made Fireteams QOL stuff like Sixth Sense, Discover bonus or ARO-spreading (like how many newbies play it; if one fireteam member dodges, they all dodge), then the supreme Fireteams get more reasonable as their actual combat performance starts looking more like vanilla.
    Would probably kill Tohaa and ISS for sure, though, as they rely so damned heavily on that burst bonus...
     
    #18 Mahtamori, Feb 20, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  19. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I actually think it's mainly the BS and sixth sense combination that prevents any kind of mod stacking that pushes link units into the stratosphere.

    A B2 kamau is a reasonable ARO piece.
    An unmodifiable BS15 B2 kamau is a nightmare.
    Sixth sense turning msv1 info functionally msv2 as well just exacerbates the need to take a full link and therefore the need to make it 5 man.

    I think burst should stay, but sixth sense and bs bonus are changed for the QoL things as you say. Maybe Dodge bonus, even order bonuses like tacaware at 5 strong I think would be attractive.
     
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  20. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    The only point I will bring up is this is definitely a case-by-case scenario. Factions I have played like WB and RTF don’t have Strong ARO plug-ins to go with their LI, so I often include ML LI in both of them. Yes, each of them has a BS13 HRL, but sometimes you need the Longer ranged ARO of a ML, even if it is BS11.
     
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