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Aleph vanilla

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Angry Clown, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Angry Clown

    Angry Clown Well-Known Member

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    When i desire to make a list in Aleph vanilla, at the end i feel like i am making an OSS list without a dakini link.
    Vanilla Aleph seems less strong more over there arent many options like other armies.

    still there is Achiles with shukra. thats ok. But cant find more variety.
    Do you feel the same or am i missing something ?

    Meanwhile , Patroclus can be a new star in new vanilla.
     
  2. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    You are missing Atalanta TR and smoke
     
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  3. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
    Warcor

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    Ajax, Ekdromos, Scylla are also units that bring a lot to the table and allow you to play and make plays that you otherwise cannot in OSS. Just to name a few.
    Access to Eclipse comes in clutch too, to allow your Hackers to get in position even in the face of an MSV.

    Has said, Jerkilles and Patroclus are very appealing, but Hector is also one fantastic LT (capable of surviving Assassins and resilient to Hacking and, therefore, BS Guided), much better than Shukra, imo, and also gives uniques ways to be played. I mean, Hector and Posthumans... that's just downright disgusting.

    Another word for Scylla, she can make every Danavas or Mk.1 you bring to the table that much more frightening having her own repeater network.

    EDIT: fixed a typo
     
    #3 Ashtaroth, Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
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  4. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Myrmidons and their characters bring a whole mess of things to the table that OSS is unable to do. Thorakitae are fantastic for littering your deployment zone with armor templates.

    I find the myrmidon officer to be one of the best support pieces for the Marut. CoC, smoke, and good close combat all help fill the Marut’s weak spots.

    Achilles with proxies is an absurd combination.
     
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  5. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    Most of the solo pieces you will use might be from OSS (Naga, Posthumans, Shukra, etc), but vanilla brings plenty of stuff to the table compared to operations:

    - More than one profile that can CC with good delivery options
    - 50% more netrod
    - Three thorakitai to cover your rearguard
    - Smoke for your visors (a smoke dodge can do wonders in tandem with a Marut or Atalanta)
    - Improvements in repeater coverage and hacking reach (Thamyris, Scylla, Hacker ekdromoi)
    - Murderous greeks that can push forward
    - White noise and infiltrators to support said murderous greeks
    - Good value lieutenants (read: murderous greeks with an extra order and good CoC options for when they die)
    - The Liberto, if you think your chromed demigods can endure the presence of filthy fish non-people doing roadblock duty.

    Sure, there are a lot of profiles that you wouldn't even consider taking unlinked or are redundant in vanilla, but I think you can come up with a solid list that doesn't depend on 5-man link bonuses. We don't have vanilla-ony stuff like CA with the aspects, but there's plenty of stuff to use.
     
  6. The Revanchist

    The Revanchist Well-Known Member

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    To me, this sounds like it may just be difficulty stepping out of your comfort zone.

    There's an entire Sectorial of options that are a stark contrast to the tools that OSS can bring, not to mention the plethora of mercenaries available to vanilla factions (if that's your thing).

    Access to a wide array of units with MSV and a selection of Smoke throwers, CC specialists, unique character options (Atalanta/Patroclus/Penthisilea immediately come to mind, but there are quite a few), Combat Jump Hackers, REM Drivers
     
  7. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I get the impression the OP lacks some imagination.

    Yeah daikini can pack a significant amount of firepower into a cheap package. Oppressively so in fact.

    If all you want to do is mod stack with daikini and lololol with your post humans then yeah, play operations.

    Steel has a lots of useful tools that are solo pieces, maceon, Phenix, eudoros, Atalanta, myrmidons generally, cheap thorakities who are powerful area denial... It's goes on.

    Also access to smoke, especially with visors is useful.
     
  8. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I've been tinkering with lists built to support a Marut in vanilla ALEPH, and some of them are just kind of fun.

    Less Limited Insertion
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    HECTOR (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Spitfire, Nanopulser, Grenades ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0.5 | 67)
    MARUT MULTI Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower, Nanopulser / AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 95)
    [​IMG] KARKATA Flash Pulse / . (0 | 0)
    SCYLLA (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (+2 Damage)]) Boarding Shotgun, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20)
    SAMEKH Rebot Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 18)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    PROXY Mk.1 (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    PROXY Mk.2 (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 25)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This concentrates your attack vectors into a couple of channels, but Scylla's EVO means you can give either combat REM supportware or you can Dust your Marut, and her Trinity via repeaters is nasty. There's an infiltrating hacker handy for early game Spotlighting targets to either supercharge the Marut's attacks or give the missile bot something to nuke, and a backline engineer with yudbots to pick things up and unstick them as needed.

    Giantess H4XX
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    MARUT (Lieutenant, Strategos L2) MULTI Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower, Nanopulser / AP CC Weapon. (2 | 99)
    [​IMG] KARKATA Flash Pulse / . (0 | 0)
    ATALANTA MULTI Sniper Rifle ( | TinBot: Discover [+3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    PHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / DA CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (1.5 | 35)
    SCYLLA (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (+2 Damage)]) Boarding Shotgun, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
    [​IMG] 2X DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14)
    DANAVAS (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus [UPGRADE: Oblivion (+1B)]) Combi Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 22)
    PROBOT (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)
    PARVATI Submachine Gun(+1B), Flash Pulse ( | GizmoKit, MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 38)
    YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This one's a touch more well-rounded since it doesn't dump so many points into Hector on top of the Marut, and makes good use of select Phalanx troopers to give the list more flexibility. Between Scylla and the Danavas you've got almost every program in the game, including White Noise, plus they can chuck Pitcher shots and reload from the baggage bot. Phoenix brings smoke, and both he and Atalanta provide secondary attack vectors and ARO firepower if needed. (You can upgrade Atalanta to the TR profile if you want by downgrading Parvati to a Sophotect, at which point turning the Probot into a second Lamedh lets you take a second yudbot.)

    Remember that Scylla's two bots have repeaters, so they're targetable with White Noise.
     
    #8 wes-o-matic, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  9. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    Although my last game was in N3 I’ll chime in, as Vanilla was my game :

    What I loved about it was getting out the big guys - Phalanx had the links to outclass Achilles/‘Patroclus, making them redundant, while vanilla had smoke for the Marut. Essentially tourning it into the Rambo army.

    daikini medics provided a fast backbone that were great at digging in - sup. Fire + Mimetism + Cover + combi rifle was a great way to waste enemy orders. MOV 6-4 got them in position quickly - often using strategy tokens for MOV+MOV or Sup. Fire. In the same vein Thorakitai FOs just provided some nice, cheap and durable cheerleading in the rear.

    Another little gem from the Phalanx was the Spitfire Myrmidon, who in the Phalanx got outclassed by characters, but having a dude with Mimetism -6, a Spitfire and Smoke is golden. Of course Achilles looks cooler, but this guy delivers just as well. Sometimes even running a tag-team of MSV Deva+Myrmidon with Spitfires.

    Phalanx also provided utility in the form of Machaon/CoC officer. Eclipse/Smoke wins you games especially on capable specialists. More than once have I had my butt handed to me, but won the game when a little smoke could cover a Naga/Dasyus button pushing.

    In a way, it played very ‘clandestine’ - Phalanx providing a diversion and stole the picture, while OSS humbly pushed the buttons. Imagine Achilles turning up with the press, going in to destroy a Yu Jing ‘meth lab’ (while in the background OSS secures all the code for the illegal AI experiment), it was that kind of game you punched with a steel gauntlet and pushed with a silk glove.

    Aleph has the ‘best’ most well-rounded and elite troops in the game, Vanilla plays from that, as all aspects of ‘elite’ is available to you - from Lowly daikini to the murdergods of the game.
     
  10. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    Yeah, over the course of N3 I had more than a few times where my LT died and the myrmidon officer basically soloed the mission and my opponents force.

    Sure the shukra consultant is cheaper, but you lose a lot of utility for that point drop.
     
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  11. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    Exactly, a shukra is like life insurance, its wasted when you’re alive, and not worth much to you, when you’re dead. Opposed to paying a couple of extra points for a Martial Artist with Mimetism and smoke/eclipse.
     
  12. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    10 points isn't a massive cost, but a full swc to have a chain of command model is pretty impactful imho. also, generally if your lt is going to be some active piece badass, the +1 order when going first is pretty noticable.
     
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  13. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    I don’t disagree. But, if you don’t need the swc elsewhere, having a CoC model that is a good gunfighter, excellent martial artist, specialist, can spend the LT order after your LT over extends, and throws smoke is kind of awesome.
     
  14. bkromray

    bkromray Active Member

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    The full swc cost is really off putting for the officer, they are the only CoC models without a support weapon that I know of that cost swc.
     
  15. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    I mostly agree. I pretty much exclusively play vanilla Aleph and have now played a fair amount in N4. I’m finding vanilla to be weaker than it was in N3. In N3 vanilla was top tier, and in N4, they’re somewhere in the middle IMO. I think the difference primarily comes from their good profiles costing more for what you get (e.g. Proxies which cost more points and SWC, but also lost abilities or equipment like hidden deployment and nano pulsers) and the trooper count maxing at 15 - I thought they played best at 16-17.

    The upside of vanilla over OSS is the variety of lists you’re able to make, some tactics (e.g. the smoke trick), and access to some units you can’t get in OSS. I agree that there is not as much variety in comparison to other vanilla factions, but it's still there. These are the units that I think are interesting/good in vanilla and not in OSS: Krakot, Liberto, Thorakities, Achillies, Machaon, Myrmidons, Atalata, Hector, and maybe Hippolyta, or Ajax.

    The upside of OSS is the obvious Dakini link and that you have access to most of the good profiles you could get in vanilla anyways – Andromeda, Danavas, Netrods, Parvati, Proxies, Shukra, Garuda, Dart, Naga, Dasyu, Marut, and maybe the Asuras. Overall, I think OSS is still stronger than vanilla pretty much on the back of the Dakini link.

    I don’t think Patroclus is worth his points. With an HMG, his first job is to kill things that are on ARO duty. If they have any visual mods or are linked, his odds of winning the WTW fall off a cliff. They're still likely in his favor, but aren't good enough to be consistent. Maybe if he had mimetism (-3)? Aleph is short on good gun fighters in the 45-60 point range so maybe he’s ok to bring? He can definitely kill stuff and he looks like a good rambo that can get his points back. Just seems a bit overcosted to me.
     
  16. bkromray

    bkromray Active Member

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    I agree here, perhaps if he was bs 14 or mimetism -3, I just think he is really overshadowed in vanilla and SP by Ajax. He could use some stat buffs or maybe surprise attack -6.
     
  17. Angry Clown

    Angry Clown Well-Known Member

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    I agree with everything you mentioned. About Patroclus, he is the only specialist in the game with hmg if i am not mistaken. Isnt it big?

    Also. Hmg on a holoprojector is very cool. You move Patroclus and ask for aro. If a delay comes, you can attack with bs13 4 burst assuming opponent is in cover. Smoke is nice tool and helps getting in close combat. And he is the only tool with marker state advantages.

    2 wounds is cool too.
     
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  18. bkromray

    bkromray Active Member

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    Yeah HMG plus button pusher is nice, but wip 13 feels a little low for aleph, plus that makes his reset kinda substandard now that he is hackable. He doesn't really feel like HI despite having two wounds, maybe making him a MI like shakti or better armored. He just feels like he occupies a strange singular niche in the army. Much like the tool in a swiss army knife that is used for getting a stone out of a horses shoe.
     
    #18 bkromray, Feb 22, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
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  19. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    I agree. Patroclus has lost his pull in me.

    I loved him in N3, as the deceptive mini Achilles - I never tried going for the shell game, but always ran them separately. Having two MOV 6 ODD Spitfires were golden - a perfect tag team, hurtling towards the enemy guns, blazing while dancing a bladed ballet.

    An HMG just seems so clumsy and vulgar, like a serated hatchet, compared to the old scalpel.

    And where is that HMG needed? Vanilla has plenty of options, and the Phalanx got by without, until the Thorakitai got revamped.
     
  20. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    We can compare Patroclus to the new chunky boy of Military Orders: the Holy Sepulchre (NCO)

    The knight is bigger, sturdier and way better at shooting (in lieu of +1 BS and AP HMG) and being a roadblock. Pat is faster, sneakier and more flexible (in terms of weaponry, utility and I guess also yoga since he's young and all). The +0,5 SWC you're paying in comparison hurts, but I think I prefer the general utility of Patroclus (specialist, bring his own smoke, templates, holomask, EXP sword) over the more specialized role of MO's new combat fridge.
     
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