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Why ISS doesn't work...

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Feb 8, 2021.

  1. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    If your idea of a well rounded IA list is two HMGs, a stack of bots, and all your leftover points spent on mooks with combi ranged guns then I'm beginning to get a picture of why you are having so much trouble making ISS work.
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So you're overlooking the part where it's still got a sixth of the list missing? You could be adding anything from a Haidao MSR to a Liu Xing to combat REMs or swapping KHD Haidao out for other toys while rounding the list out. I intentionally posted a partial list to point out how easy it is to round that out to a 14-15 model list and still go way over 15 orders.

    It's fucking stupid but like I pointed out in my other thread IA runs the best LI core links in the faction. It boggles my mind how we wound up in that spot but CB have made it so.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Arguably, that's about as much a definition of an LI core as a Kamau Multi Sniper in a core is a defining feature of Fusiliers. Both use their cheap mooks as buff bots to the more competent units, neither the Zhanshi nor the Fusiliers serve much of a purpose beyond making their Haidao/Kamau or ShangJesus/FeuerOrc perform well beyond their design specifications.
    As long as the buffed unit doesn't break the game I don't see a problem with this (and I'd argue that in the Kamau's case due to Mimetism they do).

    I personally don't see the charm in playing IA by maxing the unit allowance, though, because by dragging the cost average down to 20 points you're missing out on the diverse heavies that IA can field. Just for point of reference, adding everything =<15 in IA yields a list of 13 order generating bodies at 149/0 - not quite enough for two Guijia with 17 orders and 4 specialists and 6 potential LT bodies, but very close.

    --

    But all that aside...
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah my definition of LI core has warped significantly as mixed links have become the norm. If it's about 100 points or under and majority members are LI/MI it's an LI core to me, even if none of them are pointmen. Like you say a great deal of LI/MI have become buff bots these days.

    I don't always hit the max order cap. TBH I actually like playing at 13 or 14 alot too as it makes people start looking for Liu Xing that don't exist. Or Hac Tao. I have had alot of fun with this list, run it several times now.


    power pack
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 34)
    ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (0 | 31)
    KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    HǍIDÀO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    HAC TAO Missile Launcher, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 60)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)

    4 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  5. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible Officer

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    That's an interesting haris - no mid-long range guns. Do you just clear a path with the sniper/Shang Jesus? Love seeing the Hac Tao ML/Daoying sniper!
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's written specifically for Power Pack, the suppression zones make the link acting as an ARO device less valuable and increase the strength of single shot ARO pieces like the Hac Tao.

    Generally speaking yes I use Core links to open a path for a Haris link or solo operator to then invade and do CQC work, then the core link sweeps in to fight whatever comes in to counter attack the Haris team. Rarely ever have guns in my Haris links that use SWC.

    If my opponent presents little to no viable ARO threats I might consider just ramming the core link at them and doing as much damage as possible.
     
    #66 Triumph, Feb 17, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
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  7. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly how the ISS Kuang Shi core operates, except it costs you 49 points and can cover their advance with smoke.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13)
    XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse, Madtraps / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    WÚ MÍNG Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 30)
    WÚ MÍNG Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23)
    KǍNRÈN (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt ( ) / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 26)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    HSIEN (Lieutenant) Heavy Machine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 55)
    MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Most of my ISS lists end up looking like this one, with adjustments depending on the mission. The core of a Kuang Shi link with a wildcard Xi and the ABH ARO package tends to be how I start my lists though, there's a lot of power in those little guys.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think you overestimate how much they care about capturing perps XD
     
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  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    This many times.

    I've suggested numerous times that Bao Units got remade with riotstopper profiles, rather than that weird MSV2 unit they are trying to be.
     
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  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Bluecoats are what Bao want to be when they grow up.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but Martial Arts (probably 1) instead of Natural Born Warrior and I don't think MSV2 instead of CC+1DAM, Sixth Sense and Shock CCW would make them weird! Should still land very close to Bao's current cost.
     
  12. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    As engaging this whole suppressing any resistance by brute force may sound, the ISS ist still a military intelligence service. So gathering at least some intel should be a priority for them.
    I know Nanopulsers are like the default oh-shit-button or roomsweeper sidearm weapon for high-tech heavy infantry. And they are more impressive for the audience than a riotstopper. But there's not much information to gather from a molten pool of meat.
     
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  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Not to play on an old tune, but I used to complain that the literal counterintelligence sectorial lacked the Counterintelligence rule, but then I read Uprising and suddenly it actually made a lot of sense why ISS lacked that rule.

    The addition of Taowu with Counterintelligence is (I think) a mere coincidence rather than an actual deliberate decision to grant ISS Counterintelligence.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    But isn't the counter to intelligence stupidity? Thanks. I'll see myself out.
     
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  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I'm doing an exercise for myself by making lists for every single mission. Wow ISS is F'd with Looting & Sabotage! They just don't have the tools to get the job done. The AC unit needs to be destroyed in CC with Anti-Material weapons (DA, EXP, T2 or D-Charges). There's only 4 troops with it! The Crane, Ninja AVA 1, Sophotech AVA1, and Zhanying Hacker. Even Starmada has more! That's a huge disadvantage for mission where most of the points come from destroying the AC unit. We need to lobby for more those! Why the ef doesn't Kanren have D-Charges? Then again why is monofilament not Anti-Material? It can bring down a TAG but not an AC2 unit?
     
  16. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    I was at least somewhat understanding most of the point, right up until the first capitalized F letter.

    IS does not require discounts on their things. Affordability was never and still isn't an issue with the Sectorial.

    If nothing else, the main issue is that whilst you can afford most things, said "most things" just aren't that good to use ultimately. Getting orders in IS is easy. Getting a good variety of stuff to spend them on is the issue.

    And that's not to mention how badly Frenzy would affect both the Cranes and Hsiens standings in Vanilla.

    There are many ways to improve IS: tweaking some of the AVA stats like on the Ninja, making the Bao Troops make actual honest to god sense as a unit for once, giving Cranes a D-Charge maybe, expanding/improving upon the mercenary options.
    But discounts on things, especially discounts via Frenzy, is probably not one of them.


    Same applies to this. Hell I've even ran Wu Ming Cores. Even ran Wu Ming Cores alongside Sun Tze in N4. Frenzy won't really help more than it'd do harm to YJ Vanilla and Ikari. When we get the other units in the faction to finally make some more sense ( This is a verbose way of saying Bao Troops. ), Wu Ming will naturally improve in context by having more ways for the various issues bringing them poses to simply be mitigated mildly by the other stuff you brought alongside them.
     
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  17. SpectralOwl

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    I'd lobby more to just remove that stupid Anti-Materiel requirement. So many serviceable melee profiles in this game get left behind on missions meant to encourage their usage because they brought the wrong type of cutlery.
    I'd argue Wu Ming would actually be a good spot for full Impetuous. It would give them a useful discount, and distinguish them from Zuyong more in Vanilla by giving them an extra order to move aggressively and use their versatile close-range loadouts. The HMG and HRL would suffer by comparison outside a link, but a cheap Chain Rifle/SMG or Shotgun FO would be just the ticket for dense maps or Objective Rooms.
     
  18. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    See, making them actually Impetous to make them into a pseudo-Tanko unit I can understand. That would be an interesting approach.

    Personally, I think if Wu Mings need a way to improve themselves, is to double-down on the funky loadouts. Like we got that nade launcher, we got that Chain Rifle SMG, got that LSG Panzer, them Shock Mines.
    Why not add in maybe some Smoke and Eclipse Nade Launchers? Koalas or MadTraps? Heavy Shotgun with a bonus? Why not toss in funky weapons for our more liked convicts?
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just a random thought: ISS is our oldest sectorial, it's got some ancient miniatures by Infinity standards that show no signs of being updated, and Yu Jing is currently full when it comes to number of sectorials. I'm dead certain ISS being discontinued is visible on the roadmap, but the question is when and whether it'll come with a sectorial final update that did a lot for above all else Phalanx (and arguably less for a few others).

    Aye. Frenzy is a point of discussion. ISS (I prefer not to use the single-letter abbreviation due to the terrorist organisation in real life) have little problems filling an order group with low quality troops, but ISS also has a problem getting orders on high quality troops and getting high quality troops into the list IMO. Those two do not necessarily need to be solved, but the A-tier and S-tier sectorials such as they exist have both solved one way or another.

    Frenzy is a means to increase the number of high quality troops while TacAware/NCO are a means of increasing orders. I agree that I'd rather not see Frenzy become the new Mimetism shortcut to make a unit's cost match its performance applied as widely as it is and would rather see TacAware on Cranes/Hsien as the solution to add value without inflating costs too much (with Crane Mehmut having the sectorial's only NCO profile).

    For Cranes I think it's partial folly to expect them to perform well in vanilla; there is very little in the Crane that you actually look for in vanilla when they are a melee unit with poor delivery methods and a shooting unit that's outclassed by much cheaper enemies. The Hsien has a few outstanding units and the one I'm most eager to try out is the LT2 profile to see if it's possible to make it work well.

    That all said, the removal of Stealth from Hsien is odd in how unmotivated it feels.

    I'd honestly hate it for the same reasons I hate Impetuous links in general. For vanilla it'd be fine, really cheap impetuous warband equivalent heavy infantry like that would honestly be a fresh take on things and a sort of logical inclusion for heavy infantry rich Yu Jing. When I deconstruct versus the Tanko I'm getting some ridiculously low prices and they'd probably end up being adjusted upwards only to prevent the cheapest Wu Ming load out from rivalling the cheapest Celestial Guard

    Don't know whether Wu Ming for ISS specifically need such drastic measures, though. They're outdated and underperforming compared to other heavy infantry, but they're more bland than bad.

    More likely I think a heavy infantry warband like that has room in vanilla but would be more at home in White Banner or a new sectorial and be associated with Shaolin - like a literal Shaolin in Heavy Infantry armour (so; hackable, actual ARM and BTS, and increased PH).
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah with the disadvantage of being unable to scare heavier targets or people who declare dodge. Kuang Shi are incredibly inefficient at attacking opponents that just start dodging provided they're anything more difficult to handle than PH10 ARM1 shit.

    Overall that list you posted is really weak. You clearly have very little hacking in your meta, you're basically begging to be put into loss of LT on turn 1 against a hacking competent opponent your LT is wide open and none of your HI have firewalls of any type. Additionally you're completely reliant on a single unlinked HMG to stand any chance of fighting your way through hard AROs.

    The Hsien on his own does not stand good odds to beat current top end ARO units, the Wu Ming HRL even less so. For example trying to engage one of those new Marksmanship MSV Snipers, the Hsien is so bad he's straight up the unfavoured unit in the face to face confrontation, sitting at 25-41% if he tried to tackle a Grenzer. Very similar story if you had him try to tackle Atalanta or a Bolt sniper.

    For someone claiming that people are stuck in an N3 mindset it's kind of ironic, you're posting a list that's ignoring problems introduced in N4 such as pervasive and increased hacking presences/prowess along with the power creep of fire teams both offensive and defensive. I think you are also misunderstanding the concept of ramming the core link at the opponent, I am talking about going in, killing important models, then backing off. I also have a much better chance of doing this because I have the ability to run way more orders through my fireteams than you do. The prospect of attacking, killing, and moving to safety is a reality because I can get over 10 orders through my core link, if your opponent strips orders on turn 1 you're stuck at 8 and it'll cost you a bare minimum of 3 to even just cross no man's land. To deal any damage that core link is on a one way trip it's not got the fuel or horsepower to get in, deal big damage, and get out.

    You are suggesting the idea of running that Kuang Shi core in on a suicide mission and hoping that they manage to trade effectively for the casualties on the way. As pointed out, you're unlikely to kill high value models you're just going to clean up mooks and cheerleaders. You're behaving as if this is N3 where ISS can get away with doing this because they bring more orders to the table. Every order you trade for is a trade up, your orders are worth less than your opponents because you have 20 and he has 10-15 to begin with.

    Now it's a much higher chance you both started with 15. You spending your orders to trade for soldiers of roughly the same value and quality isn't good. If you kill 5 guys and at the start of your next turn are missing a core link of 5 guys, you're not in a good position to do jack shit, you have 2 order groups of 5 now that's shit.
     
    #80 Triumph, Feb 17, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
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