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Order of Resolution in Step 6.1 - Effects

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Myomer, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Myomer

    Myomer Tyrannosaur in an F-14
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    Hello, the order of resolving effects in Step 6.1 of the Order Expenditure Sequence recently came up in two different forms in our tournament. I also referenced this linked thread which has a third situation.

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...camo-marker-state-all-at-once-question.38357/

    All three situations involve the timing of dodge movement within step 6.1 as relating to other effects. The above thread relates to dodging around a corner into base contact with a model that has declared re-camouflage (Case 0). Our first situation involves dodging into base contact with a discovered impersonator (Case 1), and our second situation deals with dodging into base contact in the same location as a model that is being coup de graced (Case 2). I see three possible resolutions, with the longest (and the one I went with for now) being inserted at the end.

    I went with the third option because it provides a concrete resolution to all three situations, but it represents a potential extrapolation of the rules where a specific order was not intended. Any and all feedback is welcome. A special thank you to @rushputin, @QueensGambit, and @obyiscus for their input.

    First Option: Any effect that depends on another effect occurring within step 6.1 cannot happen because no resolution order is specified outside of a few instances: discover + shoot and dodge movement order. Therefore, the pre-condition of one effect cannot happen to meet the requirement of the other effect, such as dodging into base contact with a model also coming out of a marker state because of being discovered.

    Second Option: Apply the dodge movement order--active player first followed by reactive player (N4 p. 83)--to all effects. This resolves:
    Case 0: The active model camouflages before reactive model dodges, so base contact is not possible; and
    Case 2: Coup de grace occurs first so reactive model can now reach base contact.
    It does not resolve:
    Case 1: Both actions--discover and dodge--are by the reactive player, so the option to dodge into base contact faces the same issue as in the first option.

    Third Option: use the list of effects in step 6.1 (N4 p. 21) as an actual sequence of actions, with the dodge movement order being used within each effect. This resolves all cases:
    Case 0: The "special skill" of camouflage resolves before dodge movement, so base contact cannot be achieved.
    Case 1: The "skill" of discover resolves before dodge movement, so base contact can be achieved.
    Case 2: The "skill" of coup de grace resolves before dodge movement, so base contact can be achieved.

    Order of Resolution for Step 6.1 - Effects
    Note: This ruling should be rarely used and only in the effects stage.
    Q: How do you resolve interacting effects that happen simultaneously? Specifically:
    Q1: Can my reactive model use dodge movement to enter base to base contact with an enemy model discovered in the same order?; and
    Q2: Can my reactive model use dodge movement to enter base to base contact with an enemy model, dependent on the enemy model’s coup de grace removing an unconscious model where my model needs to be?

    A: Skills should be resolved in the order presented in Step 6.1 (Effects) of the Order Expenditure Sequence. If both players need to resolve the same type of effect, the active player should resolve the effects of their skill/dodge/etc. first, followed by the reactive player.
    A1: Yes, because the reactive player’s successful discover—a skill—resolves prior to the reactive player’s dodge movement.
    A2: Yes, because the active model’s coup de grace—a skill—takes place before the reactive model’s dodge movement.

    Basis: Interacting effects lead to situations where one effect relies on another “simultaneous” effect to take place beforehand. Wording in the N4 rules can be used to establish an order of operations if needed. As per p. 21, Order Expenditure Sequence, Step 6.1, Effects: “Players apply all effects of successful Skills, Special Skills, and pieces of Equipment, and make Saving Rolls, any Dodge movement or Alert.” Thus, when necessary resolve effects in this listed order.

    When both players have the same type of effect, the instructions for Dodge in the N4 Rules, p. 83 can be extended to other effects. This states that when “both players have Troopers that successfully Dodged, the Active Player will move their Troopers first, then the Reactive Player will move theirs.” Thus, the active player resolves a specific effect first, followed by the reactive player resolving that same type of effect.

    Edited for lack of caffeine.
     
    #1 Myomer, Feb 11, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm a player in the tournament and gave my thoughts already, prior to the ruling being made. I'll repeat them here just for the sake of the forum discussion, though I know @Myomer has already considered them.

    I favour the First Option (which Myomer worded much better here than I did in the original discussion). I think that it's a design principle of Infinity that everything happen simultaneously unless otherwise specified. I don't think that the list of effects in step 6.1 is intended to be an ordered list, so I think that all effects are supposed to be Resolved simultaneously. There are specific exceptions in the rules for the Discover+Shoot maneuver (the Discover is resolved before the BS attack is resolved) and for Dodge (the active player's Dodge movement is resolved before the reactive player's Dodge movement). In my view this supports the reading that, aside from those exceptions, all Resolution happens simultaneously.

    This means that you can't resolve any effect in a way that would first require resolving another effect (other than the two exceptions).

    Applying that reasoning, I would reach the following conclusions on the scenarios:


    Discover vs. Dodge

    Camo marker A actives and declares Move. Reactive trooper R AROs Discover, and reactive trooper S AROs Dodge. S would like to move into silly contact with A if it is revealed by the Discover.

    S can't do so because the Discover can't be resolved prior to the Dodge. So A is still in marker state for the purpose of the Dodge. S is not permitted to move into silly contact with a camo marker.


    Dodge vs. coup-de-grace

    Active trooper A declares coup-de-grace against unconscious reactive trooper R. Reactive trooper S AROs Dodge. S would like to move into a spot currently occupied by R.

    (I realize now that in the Discord discussion my reply was wrong, because I was thinking that R was an enemy unit to S. My reply in that thread doesn't actually apply in this situation).

    Nonetheless, S can't do the movement it wants to do because doing so would require resolving the coup-de-grace prior to the Dodge. R is still on the table for the purpose of Dodge. S can't move to a spot that is occupied by another model (the rules don't actually say that, any more than they say that you can't move through scenery, but it's implied by common sense and by the fact that we play with physical models and two of them aren't physically capable of occupying the same space).


    Dodge vs. recamo (from the other thread)

    Active trooper A declares a whole order to enter camo state. Reactive trooper R AROs Dodge (from around a corner). R wants to enter silly contact with A.

    R can enter silly contact, because he can do so without having to first resolve the re-camo effect. A is already in model state and thus available to be Engaged. (Technically A will also enter marker state during this Resolution, however he will then immediately lose marker state because he's in silly contact with an enemy model).
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While this is an active question that I'm tracking, I would say that a functional stop gap that doesn't require a lot of extra reasoning is that everything is resolved in the order as written in Order Expenditure Sequence; meaning Dodge movement is resolved almost last, after re-camo and Discover.

    It just gets really messy if you need to track the quantum states of units during eventful orders. (Plus, you know, Dodge actually has an internal order, meaning it's not actually simultaneous)
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    This seems one of the examples where you just have to stick with Infinity's "all at once" and it all works even if our brain has a hard time allowing for that to happen.
    Track the state of things for when stuff happens at exactly the same time.

    Discover vs. Dodge
    The Dodge Movement triggers at the exact same time as the Discover would take effect. There is no sequence here, same time, period. The Camo Marker is still a Camo Marker and you can't enter BTB with enemy Camo Markers.

    Dodge vs. coup-de-grace
    Same thing, CDG has not ben resolved therefore the unconscious trooper is still on the table when you resolve the Dodge Move. None of them happen first. Can't move through an enemy trooper.

    Dodge vs. recamo
    At the point in time where you resolve the Dodge Move the recamo hasn't happened and nothing prevents you from getting into BTB. Recamo also happens because nothing has entered BTB with you. However Camo then gets cancelled immedeately afterwards because you are Engaged at the end of the Order.

    ... turns out those are pretty much the same conclusions @QueensGambit had.
     
  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    "Can't move through an enemy trooper" was my initial answer on the Discord as well, but then I realized that the Dodging trooper is actually trying to move through a friendly trooper. He's trying to move into the space currently occupied by his unconscious ally who is simultaneously getting coup-de-graced by an enemy trooper.

    Doesn't change the result, since you can't end your movement occupying the same space as a friendly trooper, either. It just means we can't cite the "movement ends when you reach s2s contact with an enemy" rule.

    The original question on Discord was accompanied by an argument that maybe, because the unconscious trooper is friendly, you can in fact move into the space he occupies, since you can move through friendly troopers and, by the end of Resolution, the unconscious trooper will be gone so you will be able to remain in that spot. I don't find the argument to be all that persuasive (I think the movement rules imply that the move has to be physically possible at the time that you physically move the model, and it's not physically possible to leave the Dodging trooper in the same space as the unconscious trooper when the unconscious trooper hasn't yet been removed), but it's worth mentioning. If the unconscious trooper had been an enemy trooper, the argument would be easier to refute since you can't move through enemy troopers at all.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    https://infinitythewiki.com/Dodge

    Let's check it: https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#Order_Expenditure_Sequence
    I would dare to say that:
    1) Discover vs. Dodge
    The Discovered model should still be considered a Camo, no way to enter contact

    2) Dodge vs. coup-de-grace
    The space is still occupied. Entering in Engaged stops movement, you cannot end the movement in an occupied space.

    3) Dodge vs. recamo
    As opposed as case 1, the Camo is not yet recamo'd, so you can contact it and prevent the effect

    Remember that the Dodge movement is DECLARED in the Effect Step. The IMPORTANT box (https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#Order_Expenditure_Sequence)regarding details is always applied
    When you are supposed to specify the movement route, you still have a camo/unconscious/model on the table.

    The only exception to simultaneity is stated in the Dodge rules (if both models Dodge). Any other effect should be treated as simultaneous.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Camouflaged state isn't prevented or cancelled by an enemy getting into base contact with it. Entering the state requires you to be outside LOF and cancelling state requires the Marker to be a Marker and move into contact with an enemy - this reading of simultaneity has a miniature not moving into contact with anyone.
    This is similar to a camouflaging trooper ending up both Camouflaged and IMM-A from a MadTrap (trooper is not a Marker when it is forced to make a save).

    I think the least fucky ordering must prevent a dodging trooper from entering base contact with an enemy that is entering Marker state, reason being that being Engaged with a Marker state has a range of problems in how cancellation occurs.
     
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  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    "Cancellation
    - The Camouflaged Marker enters Silhouette contact with an enemy Model."

    It doesn't have to be the Camo Marger initiating that via a Move, enter is not Move. It's just that normally only the Camo Marker can initiate because of the Camo rules.
    Everytime a Camo Marker ends up in S contact with an enemy Model Camo immedeately gets cancelled.

    Same Order
    >Successfully Dodge in BTB with trooper trying to recamo
    >Successfully recamo
    >Camo turns off because Camo Marker is in BTB with an enemy Model.
     
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  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    It's true, the approach some of us have suggested above does require a broad interpretation of the cancellation clause of Camouflaged, "The Camouflaged Marker enters Silhouette contact with an enemy Model," to mean that the camouflaged state is cancelled immediately any time the marker is in s2s with an enemy model. In other words, we have to read "enters s2s contact" as "starts being in s2s contact" rather than "moves into s2s contact."

    I think it's an interpretation consistent with the wording of the cancellation clause, and also consistent with the overall philosophy of the rule, that you can't be in camo state and also touching an enemy.

    Neither approach is perfect. Personally I think "the marker enters camo state but immediately loses it because it simultaneously enters s2s contact with a Dodging enemy model" is preferable to assigning a chronological order to Resolution. But it definitely still belongs on the unanswered questions list :-)
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If it is a camo marker you may not enter contact.
    If it is not a camo marker there is also no state cancellation to trigger when you do.
    Really that simple.
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Except you replace the model with a Marker and Silhoutte contact is reliant on the Marker not the Model or Trooper. As a result the Marker enters Silhouette contact at the end of 6.1 (when both the Dodge Move and Recamo stop being quantum states) and you meet the cancellation condition at that precise moment.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Uh... What? That's not in the rules.

    So let me get this straight, the interpretation that says "it's all simultaneous" requires the trooper entering Marker state to enter it AFTER the enemy has moved and for the marker to count as entering by coming into existence with little support from the rules?
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I don't think it's as clearcut as either of you suggest.

    I think the wording "the marker enters into s2s contact with an enemy" is broad enough to refer to the coming into existence of s2s contact between a marker and an enemy by any method. So, if two models are in s2s contact, and then one of them turns into a marker, that event creates s2s contact between a marker and an enemy model, and constitutes that state being entered into.

    On the other hand, I doubt that CB contemplated that interpretation when they wrote the cancellation clause. More likely, they were thinking that the only way for s2s contact to occur between a marker and an enemy model would be for the marker to move into s2s contact. I say that because they tried to make it impossible for the situation to occur any other way, by prohibiting models from moving into s2s contact with markers. But they seem to have overlooked this specific scenario which we've found.

    On the other other hand, I think the intention of the rules has always been that markers and enemy models can never be in s2s contact without the marker state being cancelled. So, if CB had realized that they might have overlooked scenarios such as this one where the undesired s2s contact could occur, they would have written the cancellation clause more broadly.

    Since the wording is broad enough to support the preferable interpretation, and since I think CB would have written wording that more clearly supported that interpretation if they'd thought about it, I think the cancellation clause should be read as "the marker state is cancelled immediately if the marker is in s2s contact with an enemy model."

    No. The trooper enters marker state and s2s contact simultaneously. Now that those two states both exist, the marker state is immediately cancelled. That is, if I'm right that the cancellation clause should be read as "the marker state is cancelled immediately if the marker is in s2s contact with an enemy model."
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    No, that's the beauty of things happening simultaneaously.

    Start of 6.1
    Trooper A is not in Camo yet
    Trooper B is has not executed his Dodge Move yet

    magic quantum shit happens
    Things that are (and have to be) true in this magic quantum state:

    Trooper A considers himself not to be in BTB with Trooper B so he can recamo.
    From trooper A's perspective he never is in S contact with B until 6.1 ends.

    Trooper B considers A not to be in Camo so he can enter BTB.
    From trooper B's perspective A never is in Camo until 6.1 ends.



    End of step 6.1
    quantum state ends

    Things that are true now:
    Trooper A is now in BTB with Trooper B.
    Trooper A is now a Camo Marker from Trooper B's perspective.

    For Trooper B that doesn't mean much, he was in BTB with when the target wasn't a Camo Marker to him. The rules don't care about this scenario.
    For Trooper A he now suddenly meets the cancellation conditions for Camo - reminder he was not in BTB with B until now - this has to be true or he couldn't have recamoed to begin with.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying it's clear cut how things happen, I'm saying it's clear cut that your interpretation is a complete mess as evidenced by the need for a Quantum State by Teslarod's own words.

    Quantum state, eh? No, that doesn't work with the rules. Trooper B has to be in the state to trigger the cancellation clause when entering base contact. Regardless how you interpret which trooper is the subject of that sentence, the word "enters" is in active voice present tense, not past tense. The sentence isn't "has entered".

    Simply put with your interpretation you either have to make up house rules or you will have to accept that the camouflaged/impersonation trooper is now in Marker state while also Engaged with your Dodging trooper. This puts the Dodging trooper in an awkward spot when it comes to spending orders with the only skills available to them being Idle, Reset and Dodge.

    And that's also besides which that Dodging itself isn't simultaneous; you're bending over backwards to create simultaneity to accommodate a skill order that's not in itself simultaneous.

    Play this as you wish, but the rules are no guidance here and I'll prefer to play in a way that doesn't need quantum states nor folding the rules 6 times over to make it work. Simply put; dodge movement happens last and there are no problems.
     
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  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I mean, I'm not objecting to @Myomer 's ruling, it's a practical solution that allows the tournament to be played. We can agree on that. But after making the ruling he still posted here to consider the question further. So, yeah, it's still true that chronological Effects works and is simple and playable, but that doesn't mean that it's in accordance with the rules which is what this thread asks. And the other proposed approach is also simple and playable.

    There are two potential approaches being debated here, and each of them requires an interpretive leap:

    1) "Players apply all effects of successful Skills, Special Skills, and pieces of Equipment, and make Saving Rolls, any Dodge movement or Alert" => "Players apply all effects in the following order: successful Skills, successful Special Skills, successful pieces of Equipment, Saving Rolls, and Dodge and Alert movement."

    2) "The Camouflaged Marker enters Silhouette contact with an enemy Model" => "The Camouflaged Marker is in Silhouette contact with an enemy Model."

    My opinion is that (1) is a much larger leap than (2), for the reasons discussed at length above. But they're both leaps. That's what makes it an unanswered question.
     
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  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I can definitely understand the strong desire for elements to have an order of operation and some kind of hierarchy.

    But the rules seem to avoid that a lot. At some point you need to release the mental model of sequential action and think about how to look at things differently.

    @Teslarod I think nails it in terms of how I understand the rules are written and obeys the rule of "everything happens at the same time"
     
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  18. Myomer

    Myomer Tyrannosaur in an F-14
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    Thanks all, it looks like the first option is the overwhelming preference. I'm also pretty thrilled to add magic quantum shit ("MQS") to my Infinity vocabulary, so thanks for that @Teslarod! I would definitely like to see an official ruling on this in the future, but MQS can see me through for now.

    I never thought I would have a reason to miss N3's clunky declare-where-you-are-going-when-you-dodge mechanic, but...well I'm closer to missing it but still not there.

    Tagging @Triumph and @toadchild seeing as this is a bit of a continuation of their thread.
     
  19. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    While it was originally a very strong design principle in Infinity that everything happens at once, as the rules have progressed there have been more and more cases where an ordering has been imposed.

    From N3 and the N4 FAQ, there's
    Do you need to specify all details of a Skill when declaring it? For example where the target is for a BS Attack, or where the template is being placed for White Noise?

    Yes, with the exception of the target’s position, which is chosen in the Resolution step, before measuring Ranges. If the order of declaration is important, the active player chooses who declares first.

    and the Dodge rules already admit that the movements can't be simultaneous:

    • Is measured, declared, and the Trooper moved, during the Effects step of the Order Expenditure Sequence. If both players have Troopers that successfully Dodged, the Active Player will move their Troopers first, then the Reactive Player will move theirs.

    The logical extension of that would be that the active player would get to decide what order the effects get resolved in. But the more reasonable (and likely to be official) ruling is going to be that all of the state changes get applied first, and then Dodge movement gets declared and resolved, because that avoids breaking (or creatively interpreting) the state cancellation clauses.
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    This boils down to "make State changes happen before Dodge Movement".
    The specific exception where there is an Order to things is for the same thing (Dodge Movement) happening twice and rules it in favor of the Reactive Player.
    Extrapolating a general rule out of that one singular and very specific exception doesn't seem to hold much value.

    This violates the essence of "All at Once" for no better reason than "Dodge does it to prevent unopposed Engaging against a successful Dodge ARO for the Active Player with Dodge Movement".

    Not sure why you'd assume the outcome of an official ruling in favor of the Active player trying to abuse ZOC mechanics?
    From what I've seen in N4, it's much more likely to assume that would be ruled in favor of the Reactive Player.

    That's the gameplay perspective.

    From a mechanical point of view the issue is Camo's weird wording using "enter" rather than just cancelling the State whenever you are in BTB with an anemy.
    Assume the Dodge just leads to LOF, not BTB. It's pretty clear the recamo still happens due to stuff happening simultaneaously.
    This works both ways and the same mechanic has to allow the Dodge move to enter BTB following the same rules.
    I'm not going to reiterate again why phasing out of a quantum state would satisfiy the conditions for "Camo Marker entering S contact with an enemy" either way already. The rules should not demand an understanding of quantum mechanics to learn them to begin with.

    The easy solution is to clarify "enter" as "is in contact with", breaking no other interaction in the game and making the whole thing a hell of a lot easier in this specific niche case.
     
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