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Acting on ladders

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Feb 8, 2021.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The fusilier Angus ends his movement halfway up a ladder. While in that position, can he declare skills and AROs such as BS attack?

    The Climb rule has an "Important" box which states "As long as the user is holding on to a vertical surface, he cannot declare any Skills other than Climb." N3 had a similar rule, which was ruled to apply to any circumstance in which a trooper was on a vertical surface, including when using a ladder. That always seemed strange to me since the rule was specifically in the Climb rule, and a trooper on a ladder doesn't use the Climb skill. Nonetheless, that was the rule.

    In N4, we still have that rule in Climb, but we also have the "Move: Ladders and Stairs" rule which states "Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface. Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement Label without needing to declare Jump or Climb, and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb."

    So I guess we know that a trooper on a ladder can declare Dodge, since it is a skill with the Movement label.

    Can the trooper also declare, say, BS Attack? The rule that says you treat the ladder as a horizontal surface would suggest yes, but BS Attack not having the Movement label suggests no.
     
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    This only means that if you want to make Movement Label Skills/ARO, you're permitted to do them without Jump/Climb, because you're on a horizontal surface when you're on a ladder. Anything else, like shooting, is not affected - because you're on a horizontal surface and nothing explicitly affects those abilities.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would say that as written it seems that you may not shoot while on a ladder.

    The rules for treating ladders as horizontal surfaces are specific to the movement skill as is prefaced in the title of the rule "Move: Ladders and Stairs" and the fact that the rule is located in the general movement rules.

    (Stairs don't seem to fall into the vertical category so you'd be allowed to shoot from a point in the stairs)
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    "Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface. Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement Label without needing to declare Jump or Climb, and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb. Movement distances are measured along the surface the Trooper moves along, as seen in the diagram."

    https://infinitythewiki.com/General_Movement_Rules#Move:_Ladders_and_Stairs

    Stairs and Ladders work the same way in the rules and make a vertical surface count as horizontal in general. Not just for Movement purposes. As a result you act exactly like on flat ground while on stairs or ladders. You get Cover, can declare other stuff than Climb and face none of the restrictions that apply while "holding on to a vertical surface" as described in the Climb rules.
     
  5. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    @Teslarod the problem with that interpretation is how to reconcile it with the "with the Movement Label" part of the rule we both quoted.

    There are also problems with the opposite interpretation, hence my question.
     
  6. Ashtroboy

    Ashtroboy Well-Known Member

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    ... Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement Label... I think the phrase means that only skills/ARO’s with the “movement label” are allowed, so no BS Attacks or CC attacks or hacking etc..
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You're retroactively interpreting rule part-B as a restriction to rule part-A.
    Part A however is a free for all, simply allowing you to count horizontal surfaces as vertical surfaces.
    A and B being true is not mutually exclusive.

    If you want to argue for being unable to declare BS Attacks and claiming cover on stairs (which again are the same thing as ladders in the rules now) you're going to have burden of proof here.

    Note that the restriction for Vertical Surfaces preventing other Skills to be declared is in the Climb rules.
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Climb
    And the next sentence of the Stair and Ladder rules explicitly lifts those restrictions:
    "and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb"

    You cherrypicked the middle part of the rule out of context, while literally the same sentence after the comma allows you to not give a shit about it.
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm not arguing for either interpretation.

    I'm also not touching the question of cover, in the interests of keeping the question clear.

    Again, I don't disagree with your interpretation, but how do you reconcile it with "the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement Label without needing to declare Jump or Climb"? What effect does that rule have, if the rules already allow the trooper to use any skill at all, whether or not it has the Movement label?
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just a small reminder that the entire rules section you're arguing about is a framed section called "Move: Ladders and Stairs".
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    • Troopers cannot be deployed on a vertical surface, neither during the Deployment Phase nor during the game.
    • As long as the user is holding on to a vertical surface, he cannot declare any Skills other than Climb.
    • Troopers who are Climbing or holding on to a vertical surface cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs.
    • A Trooper that is on a vertical surface and becomes Unconscious will place the corresponding Marker beside them as usual. Even while climbing, Unconscious Troopers are still in Prone state, except for those Unit Types that cannot enter Prone state.
    This is causing the restriction.

    And it's part of the Climb Rules. Not the General Movement Rules.
    Stairs and Ladders cancel the above Climb restrictions in blue that usually turn on whenever you're on a vertical surface.

    "Those pieces of scenery representing stairs and ladders allow Troopers to treat those vertical or diagonal surfaces as a horizontal surface."

    This turns off the trigger for Climb

    "Therefore, the Trooper can use any Skill or ARO with the Movement Label without needing to declare Jump or Climb, and without applying restrictions for Jump or Climb."

    This removes the restrictions for Climb, all 4 of them.
    • You can be deployed on a vertical surface, if it is stairs or ladders.
    • You can declare any Skill as normal not just Climb again (and no specific mention of Movement Label).
    • You can gain partial Cover on Stairs and Ladders
    • No changes here, seems more of a clarification that you don't fall down rather than a rule that does something to begin with.
    Edit:
    Fact check that against a real table for a sec.
    Can you deploy on stairs? Seems normal to me.
    Can you Shoot on stairs? Seems normal to me.
    Can you gain Cover on stairs? Seems normal to me.
    Prone on Stairs goes without saying.
    This is a package deal, for it to work the other way around, none of the above would be possible.
     
    #10 Teslarod, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Nope, just the opposite IMO. You're explicitly told to treat the model as if it was moving on a horizontal surface. Can it shoot or hack or cc attack when walking on the floor or a roof? It sure can!

    Does anything specifically tell him he can't in this situation? Nope! He couldn't do that Climbing a vertical wall, but he's not Climbing a vertical wall, he's moving normally and is treated as if he was on a floor/roof (horizontal surface).
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes.

    As you quoted:
    My emphasis. As far as the rules are concerned, the Trooper is on the ground. The following sentence is just a reminder that any Skills with the Movement Label aren't limited to Jump or Climb.

    Bear in mind that stairs and ladders are the same thing in Infinity, so any claim that you can't shoot etc. while on a ladder is also going to mean that you can't shoot while on stairs etc, no matter how shallow the stairs are...
     
  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Awesome, thanks @ijw !
     
  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Excellent, thanks.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Wait does this mean we can prone on ladders like we can prone on stairs?
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yes.
    Prone, gain Cover and deploy on Ladders/Stairs.
    N4 ladders and stairs use the exact same rule with no difference in between them.
     
  17. Daskeat

    Daskeat New Member

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    The rules for motorcycles think there is a difference between ladders and stairs.

    -A Trooper on a Motorcycle may drive up ramps and stairs as long as they respect the General Movement Rules. However, they cannot use ladders.

    It's a pretty specific example but I thought it worth mentioning.
     
  18. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    The funny thing is that there's only that one mention of ramps in the N4 rules.

    Interestingly, the rule for ladders and stairs describes stairs as a "diagonal surface" if you ignore the parts of the sentence about ladders:

    This is the only place diagonal movement appears in the rules outside of describing Jump movement paths. Reading on to the following sentence, the rest of that rule more or less implies that any diagonal (inclined) surface can be traversed with Climb.

    I think the best inference for guidance is something like:
    • Players should agree on what is a horizontal surface on the map, and what features are considered stairs or ladders.
    • Players should agree on what inclined surfaces are ramps; ramps are treated like horizontal surfaces for movement purposes.
    • Any other inclined or vertical surface has to be traversed with Climb (or Climbing Plus), or bypassed using Jump.
    That...could probably have been in the rulebook explicitly.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I feel sad that I both feel a need to ask this question and that I'll have to preface it with: no I'm serious and I'm not taking the piss.

    Should we or should we not take context into account when reading a line of rules?

    Let me explain.
    In this thread we have a big box called "Move: Stairs and Ladders" giving us the context that this is about movement and on stairs and ladders. Okay. Movement or possibly the skill Move is the context and it's applied when we're on stairs or ladders.
    Oh, it's in the general movement section of the rules. Reinforcing the context of movement being what the rules are about.
    Next we have a paragraph which starts off saying vertical and diagonal surfaces that have ladders and that those surfaces are treated as horizontal when they have ladders or stairs. Okay, simple rule, strongly attached to a context.
    Next and still in the same paragraph is a sentence that emphasises how to treat skills with movement labels on these surfaces. Right, this doesn't actually alter or add anything to the sentence immediately before it, the only thing it does is emphasise movement.

    However, we are told that the rules that seemed to be written in the context of movement and movement skills also apply to non-movement skills, because there is nothing in the sentence itself that limits it to movement only.

    So how far shall we forgo context when reading other rules?
    I do have a fairly reasonable example to bring up that's not completely outlandish.
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Skills_and_Equipment_in_Infinity

    Both examples are in the first Important box

    1. Let's start with the sentence "Troopers with more than one of these MODs may only apply one of them at a time."
    When I read that using context, I have assumed it means you can only apply one [burst MOD inside a bracket] at a time, but if I read it without context of the previous sentence it could equally mean one [MOD inside a bracket]; is it correct that the Az'rail has to choose between getting +1 DAM and having Continuous Damage as both are MODs to the same skill? Or maybe I'm still reading too much context into it and it's more correct that the Feuerbach Az'rail has to choose between +1B, +1 DAM or Continuous Damage?

    2. The sentence before that says "If these Modifiers (MODs) affect Burst (B), they are only applied during the Active Turn.". Now, I've come to the conclusion that since the page gives the context about being about [MODs inside brackets next to skills and equipment], specifically, this rule applies to those MODs only. However, if I am not intended to read context of what the box is called or in what section it is written into the interpretation, then; is it correct that a Zuyong can't gain both the Fireteam burst bonus and the Breaker Pistol burst bonus at the same time?

    By the way, and only for the sake of completion; ladders and stairs are identical, yes, but it's the orientation of them that would've mattered as the rules preventing e.g. BS Attack applies to vertical surfaces only and not diagonal surfaces.
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    The Active Turn Fireteam bonus to burst explicitly stacks with other Burst Mods as a special rule.
     
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