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Null State shenanigans

Discussion in 'Rules' started by wes-o-matic, Feb 2, 2021.

  1. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    In N4, there is no universal rule that Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment are disabled by Null States. All the Null label does is indicate that the trooper in that State can't generate Orders or count for VP at end of match.

    Rather, most States include a clause explicitly saying whether or not they affect those Skills/Equipment and how:
    • Dead - The model is removed from the table so common sense says they don't apply anymore*
    • Disconnected - No statement one way or the other
    • Unconscious - Disables Automatic skills/equipment unless NWI or Dogged, which cancel that effect explicitly. Regeneration explicitly says that it ignores the restriction on Unconsciousness disabling Automatic skills/equipment.
    • Shasvastii-Embryo - Variant Unconsciousness, disables Automatic skills/equipment
    Other states explicitly say they don't affect Automatic skills/equipment: Prone (unless specified), Impersonation, Camouflage, IMM-A/B (respecting limits to skill declarations), Targeted, Possessed, Sepsitorized, Stunned (respecting limits to skill declarations), Holomask, Holoecho, ISO (except comms which are disabled), Suppressive Fire, Retreat!

    There are a bunch of rules that interact with the Null label, but they don't really have any universal behaviors; they sort of fall into three broad categories though...

    Cancelled/disabled by Null State: Ability to Guts Roll, Supportware, Suppressive Fire state, Baggage, REMDRIVER token, Repeater, Tinbot, being Active G: Jumper Proxy, ability to mount an AI Motorcycle (if REM is Null), and Engaged (including counting toward gang-up CC burst bonus). Also, models lose the Normal State when they go Null, and vice versa.

    Activated by someone's Null State: Chain of Command, Mnemonica, Number 2; Peripherals become Disconnected when the controller goes Null; user of D-Charges can target Null troopers with the Deployable Weapon mode; Pilot (Remote) enables a Reset to remove a Null remote pilot.

    Ignores Null: Dogged, NWI, Non-Hackable.

    I've been trying to organize this info into a sort of cheat sheet/guide, and it resulted in noticing some oddments:

    Bug: Why does Non-Hackable use different language than Regeneration?
    Given that the default in N4 is that the Null label has no universal effect on Automatic Skills or Equipment, the language from Non-Hackable is weird. It says that it keeps working even when the user is "in a Null state." But Null States don't shut it off, just Unconscious/Shasvastii-Embryo. Those are Null States so at least RAW it works as intended, but the inconsistent wording is weird.

    Bug: Doctor/Engineer rerolls don't work when you're Unconscious...?
    Per the language in Cube/Cube 2.0, the ability to use a Command token to re-roll Doctor is an Effect of the Cube Equipment, not Doctor. Cubes are Automatic Equipment and are disabled by Unconsciousness. They lack the text from Regeneration saying they work while Unconscious.

    The same issue applies to Remote Presence and Engineer.

    I know how they're supposed to work, but RAW they're missing the bit that lets them do that.

    Bug: Escape System works but how?
    *There's a part of the Escape System rule that still affects the game state even after the unit with it is removed from the table/dead, because RAW this is a weird rule.

    The Escape System special equipment refers to Pilots in N4, not Operators, but the two TAGs with this equipment have Operators and not Pilots. This is presumably a typo? It also has a bullet specifying that the TAG's Order is still provided to the Pilot (Operator?) as long as the Pilot (Operator?!) is not in a Null State. This prompts two questions:
    1. If the Escape System stops working/no longer applies when the model with it is removed from play, then RAW there's an argument that this part of the rule doesn't actually do anything. Are we allowed to throw our Anaconda or Iguana models at players who make this argument?
    2. Does the Pilot (OPERohnevermind) get the Tactical Awareness Order as if the TAG were still generating it? This is ambiguous, the reasonable response is "no" but the rule is already kinda janky as written, so...
    Bug: A Possessed Iguana's Repeater does what, why?
    I asked this on Facebook and got all three potential answers; all three have a reasonable justification depending on which rule you prioritize:
    1. The repeater becomes part of the Hacking Area of the new controlling player. (Possessed has a clause saying it doesn't interfere with Automatic Equipment, by definition the possessing player can use its equipment as if it belonged to him, the Possesed TAG is treated as an ally, and your Hacking Area includes allied repeaters.)
    2. The repeater stays part of the Hacking Area of the original owner. (That "doesn't interfere" clause can be interpreted as "works in all respects as if the model isn't Possessed," and the Possessed Iggy isn't technically part of the controller's army list—repeaters extend the hacking area of "all Hackers in the same Army List.")
    3. The repeater is disabled during Possession. (The "doesn't interfere" clause is overridden by the fact that Possessed is still a Null State and the repeater entry's Important box implies that the repeater is disabled.**)
    **OK, so. Technically the Important box on Repeaters says "This piece of Equipment is automatically active and cannot be deactivated by its owner, unless its carrier is in Isolated State or any Null States." The wording implies that the owner "can" deactivate the Repeater while Isolated/Null, but doesn't actually say whether the Repeater automatically shuts off or whether the controlling player decides whether to leave it running or what.

    If the answer is 1, the Iguana is just an unreasonable liability above and beyond its other problems. If 2, it gets a small, well-deserved buff because it's effectively always a viable target for the original owner to ARO repossess it. 3 is presumably RAI, but runs into the odd wording noted above.

    Bug: A Sepsitorized Trooper's Repeater...you know the drill
    This is the exact same issue as with an Iguana's Repeater, because the Sepsitorized state is functionally identical to Possessed for this purpose. This question applies to the repeaters on Saladin, Chung-Hee Jeong, and Securitates. RAW the Repeater could change sides, stay with the original owner, or be disabled (whether optionally or automatically), same as above.

    Anyone care to shed light on any of these?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Non-hackable: probably because listing all the states that it applies to is needlessly verbose and bad future-proofing.

    Cubes: Re-rolling is an effect that exists for the Doctor skill and requires the target to have a Cube. A Cube that has no effect is still a Cube. See metaphor about an empty bucket still being a bucket.

    Pilot/Operator: These TAGs don't have Operators. They have an alternate profile that is named "Something Operator". Yes, they don't have Pilots, either, since Pilots can leave their TAG. In truth it should mention that it activates the second profile similar to Transmutation.

    Iguana Repeater: I don't think the explanation number 2 holds water under any amount of scrutiny. Because the red box under Repeater is never repeated (not a pun) elsewhere, it takes a very specific form of an exception so on the balance of things I would take the safe option of ruling it's disabled until an FAQ says otherwise.

    Sepsitor: Still a null. See above. Explanation number 2 makes even less sense.

    I'm not really a subscriber to the notion that there is an inherent priority system in Infinity that says "more specific has priority", mainly because the rules never say there is and does as best they can to avoid forcing a priority that isn't explicit, but also because it creates arguments of what's most specific and also that it's surprising how often where some people reach for a priority system that you can still make the rules work without assigning priority.
    In the case of the Repeater, you've got a big red box that says IMPORTANT! with rules that deviate from the norm for a Repeater. I'd say that this is a general carte blanche that it'll override any rule that says otherwise. If it's a null state, the Repeater won't be useable for any player and the owner can't ever shut it off.

    Of course, you could make the argument that maybe there should be two types of automatic - one that's automatically used and the other that's always on. I think games lingo usually call the latter "Innate" or "Passive"
     
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  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    It's not actually listed in the Doctor skill. But it is listed in the Tactical Use of a Command Token rule, which has an example of a doctor rerolling on an unconscious Fusilier. So, another case of the relevant rule being found in the examples :-)

    Absent that example, I would agree that RAW you couldn't reroll on an unconscious cube-having trooper, although that's clearly not the intent.
     
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  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Examples are part of the rules.

    That been said, the rules for cube are clear in the cube entry.
     
  5. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    It only applies to Unconscious (and Shasvastii-Embryo by extension, since it's "unconscious but with caveats about VP and Retreat"). The other Null states (Dead, Disconnected, Possessed, Sepsitorized) don't affect Automatic Skills/Equipment, except inasmuch as Dead removes the model from the table and renders all of its skills/equipment moot.

    As far as future-proofing, living rules kind of obviate that concern?

    As mentioned by @QueensGambit this isn't quite correct. Neither the Doctor nor the Engineer Skill includes a clause about re-rolling using a Command Token, and the clauses in Cube and Remote Presence are effectively deleted by the rule in Unconscious that disables Automatic Skills/Equipment. RAW the only rule that actually makes it work is the last two bullets of Tactical Use of Command Tokens (rulebook p. 129), which I missed earlier as I was focused on interactions between Null states and Automatic Skills/Equipment.

    I can think of no good reason why both Cube and Remote Presence shouldn't include the line from Regeneration about working while Unconscious.

    I agree. I suppose my main point is that the rules could be clearer about this, and I don't think that it's so far-fetched for players to think that the other options are valid based on reading the rulebook. Actual players chiming in on Facebook are my basis for this statement, not my own conjecture.

    It doesn't help that the wording in question is kind of squirrely, too. The text in that red box is: "This piece of Equipment is automatically active and cannot be deactivated by its owner, unless its carrier is in Isolated State or any Null States." Full stop.

    Repeaters are Obligatory ("The use of this Special Skill or Equipment is compulsory and cannot be waived") so "automatically active and cannot be deactivated by its owner" is redundant.

    The second part of the rule, after the comma, is fragmentary. Please fill in the blank in the purple addendum:

    "This [Repeater] is automatically active and cannot be deactivated by its owner, unless its carrier is in Isolated State or any Null States, in which case __________________________."

    Should the contents of that blank read:
    1. the equipment is automatically deactivated, and will automatically re-activate when the carrier is no longer in Isolated State or any Null State
    2. the owner may deactivate it, but it will automatically re-activate when the carrier is no longer in Isolated State or any Null State
    I'm pretty sure that RAI is #1, but it doesn't actually say that. Either is plausible.
     
    #5 wes-o-matic, Feb 2, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'll believe it when it comes true ;)
     
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