There are a number of threads re: Stealth but I’m still a bit unclear on some of the basics of how it works. Maybe, as usual, I'm just reading something wrong or missing something somewhere in the rulebook. Let’s say I have a Kunai Ninja in their active turn who intends to engage a Dog Warrior around the corner. It makes its first 4” move skill, keeping it out of LoF of the Dog Warrior but just close enough to engage with a second short movement skill. Normally, if a figure [without Stealth] moved within the ZoC of the Dog Warrior, it would trigger an ARO - if this happened, realistically the Dog Warrior would need to declare a Dodge, since they don’t have LoF and can’t practically do anything else. If the Dog Warrior neglected to take its ARO, the enemy figure could then use their second short skill to move around the corner and engage them and there would be no recourse (since the Dog Warrior gave up their ARO) - the Dog Warrior basically doesn’t have the option to shoot its Chain Rifle because it can’t wait until it has LoF and needs to take it’s ARO after the first short skill or lose it. Because the Ninja has Stealth, though, it does not grant the Dog Warrior an ARO. Thus, if the second short skill is the same as above (to move around the corner and engage) the Dog Warrior only receives their ARO on the second skill. This seems unfavorable for the Ninja because it allows (nay, forces) the Dog Warrior to wait for that second skill and then ARO Dodge OR Shoot, now that the second move has put the Ninja into LoF. The Stealth rules say: ► If the user declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies and stays outside their LoF, he does not grant AROs to those enemies. ► However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO. The second short skill is indeed a movement skill… so in and of itself it doesn't trigger the second bullet point, BUT since the second movement skill moves the active trooper through/into the reactive trooper’s LoF, it doesn’t seem to matter. Wouldn’t the reactive trooper get an ARO here? And if so, isn’t Stealth disadvantageous for this purpose (unless you optionally didn't use for your first short move to try and draw out a dodge)? Am I a dummy and am missing this somewhere in the rules or on the forums? OR is the implication of the first bullet point that it lasts for the entirety of the Order, such that the enemy in question (within ZoC but out of LoF during the first short skill) does not get ARO (period) for the remainder of that order so long any subsequent skill is a movement skill?
I believe that the ARO-suppression only works if you approach from the back arc, not ever entering LoF until you're in base contact.
You're correct, in this instance it would be better to not use Stealth. However, if the Doggo was facing the other way or under Smoke, Stealth would let you enter Silly contact without provoking any AROs.
Okay so I'm not crazy - I know people have said Stealth is underpowered... It just seemed weird from a flavor standpoint that someone with the option to be stealthy would be objectively better off intentionally making noise (except in the mentioned rear-arc scnenario) because if they catch the enemy totally by surprise it somehow makes it more likely that they will get shot in the face
If you're trying to be stealthy I'd recommend not blundering out into full view of a werewolf armed with a pair of shrapnel cannons... Edit: Where stealth is useful in this scenario is getting to the edge of the corner without provoking a Dodge, so in the following order you can do a Move+CC Attack.
As with a lot of Infinity rules you need to be willing to do minor gymastics to make narrative sense. In this case, think of "move opting not to use stealth" as like, throwing a rock to make the dog look towards the noise, or whatever. Tactics-wise, as far as I know there's no safe way for the ninja to avoid a chain rifle. You can throw a rock to provoke a dodge, then move into silly contact. But since the dog has LoF after your second skill, it doesn't suffer the -3 penalty and dodges on a 16 to get out of silly contact and line you up in its chain rifle sights.
Yeah I figured if you just idle the second part of your first order and prepare to engage on the next order that's an option... though it seems to me that just marginally better than getting into CC with your non-stealth character in the previous turn assuming they don't dodge out of range... which I guess they still could conceivably do on your next order with stealth. I can see the value of stealth but it does feel a bit meh if you're using to it try and enter melee, vs just sneaking by guys.
The advantage is that they don't get to Dodge out of range on the first order, and on the second they have to choose between Dodge, BS Attack, or CC Attack, and it'll be a F2F unless they have a DTW. Once again though, Stealth doesn't help if you charge right down the barrel of a Shotgun, which is as it should be IMHO.
Are you sure? Stealth changed between editions: N3 stealth A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them (emphasis mine). N4 stealth If the user declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies and stays outside their LoF, he does not grant AROs to those enemies. And in the context of; N4 LOF Troopers engaged in CC have a 360º LoF, but only to whatever they are in Silhouette contact with.
Right, just to be clear though, this is what happens, right? No Stealth Order 1: Ninja first short skill moves into position at the edge of the corner, triggering a ZoC ARO. Doggo declares Dodge. Ninja performs second move skill and engages. Doggo rolls a Normal (not F2F) Dodge during resolution, with one of two outcomes… A) Dodge fails - Doggo and Ninja stay engaged. Order 2: Ninja does another order and performs CC. Doggo can CC or attempt to Dodge out of engagement. B) Dodge succeeds - Doggo breaks engagement and moves two inches. Order 2: Ninja first short skill is to move into engagement again, at which point Doggo can ARO with, Dodge, BS Attack, or CC Attack. Ninja likely chooses to CC attack as second short skill - these rolls are F2F (unless Doggo uses his Chain Rifle in which case they are both Normal). With Stealth Order 1: Ninja first short skill moves into position at the edge of the corner - no ARO is triggered because of stealth. Ninja idles and the order ends with no ARO - so the Doggo doesn't get to dodge. Order 2: Ninja uses first short skill to move around the corner and engage Doggo. Doggo can ARO with Dodge, BS Attack, or CC Attack. Ninja again chooses to CC attack as second short skill - again, these rolls are F2F. Either way you are expending two Orders before you get the chance to attack. Either way your second order triggers a F2F roll. But the non-stealth requires the additional hurdle of the Doggo passing a normal Dodge during your first order (probably pretty easy for him with his high PH, but moving 2 inches further away from you after you’ve covered 8 inches to engage him is not a far enough move to keep him from being contacted again with a single move skill). Is there something I’m missing? The result seems essentially the same. It seems like the one scenario where Stealth pays off would be if the Ninja started out FURTHER away and entered Doggo's ZoC on the first move. Let's say that rather than being 8" away total as in the above example, it will take a total of 11" of movement for Ninja to engage. The first move in Stealth takes him just inside ZoC (7" of movement from being able to engage). If the Ninja wasn't Sealthing, Doggo could ARO Dodge (at -3 for no LoF) and, on a success, get 2" further away, meaning the Ninja now needs to clear 9" to engage. Ninja's second short skill is to move 4 more inches to just hidden on the other side of the corner... but that still leaves 5", which means on the next order the Ninja won't be able to engage without giving the Doggo a free shot when he comes around the corner. If the Ninja was in stealth the whole time, he could get all the way to the point of being just 4" away without triggering any AROs.
It's a question of hoping to avoid a chain rifle. If you charge around the corner into CC, the dog is likely to bs attack you with a chain rifle, and you'll cc. The likely outcome is that you each take a wound, so the ninja goes unconscious and the dog survives. Not good. If you force a dodge, move into cc, and the dog fails the dodge, then on your next order you have a f2f cc fight, which the ninja will very likely win, without ever getting hit with a chain rifle. So it does make a big difference. But the reason it's a bad tactic is that the dog will probably pass its dodge roll, so you'll have wasted an order and still need to eat a chain rifle on your next order.
The best play, if you need to take a risk, is to just move the ninja into silly contact, then when the dog chain rifles, you dodge. Then if you survive, you can start ccing on the second order.
Im not sure if its right but Dodge is short skill/aro with movement label. It shouldnt break Stealth. So as long as you can sneak outside of LoF but within Dodge distance (3" for ninja) you should be able to declare dodge as second short skill without provoking aro and use the move to get in b2b with doggo. Downside of this tactic is 40% chance to fail Dodge for ninja.
Dodge does break stealth: - If the user declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies and stays outside their LoF, he does not grant AROs to those enemies. Dodge is a short skill.
And what about just Dodging around the corner? That's a Short Skill, but doesn't provoke ARO. If you Dodge into silly contact, you can smack the Doggo on your first order. It all depends on the distances. EDIT: Posted after QG. I hate that a Short Skill with Movement label is not a Short Movement Skill. Just sayin'.
Right, I think what I was trying to say was that I don't see that the Stealth skill specifically benefits this sequence except under some fairly narrow circumstances, because stealthing prevents you from drawing out that pre-emptive dodge. Essentially if you're going to use stealth, you use it if you start outside ZoC to work your way in without drawing any ARO's over an order or two, then when you're close enough you turn off stealth and "throw the rock" to bait the dodge before entering silly contact.
Yeah I do find it confusing. It's weird that things like Discover are short movement skills too - it obviously has to do with what combinations of skills they want you to be able to do in an activation but it's kinda clunky. I'd imagine that Dodge can't be a short movement skill or else you could do something like Dodging twice in an activation to make a "move" ARO-free or dodging AND shooting or something... but that's more of an indictment of the naming convention (and the wording of the Stealth rules in this case) than it is a problem with Dodge itself. The same thing sort-of carries over to how the term "Attack" is used pretty loosely and has created a bit of confusion about things like whether you make a Guts roll following a hacking attack, and why in the world the Forward Observer skill would cause a Guts roll. Post-FAQ I think it doesn't cause Guts because it has no damage trait, but for awhile I was trying to rationalize it in my head with seeing a laser pointer on your chest and saying "Oh shit, I've been spotted" then diving back into cover
Well, keep in mind that Dodge doesn't just move you - it also allows you to defeat attacks through face-to-face rolls against them. Conceptually, that's its primary purpose. So I think it properly belongs as a short skill, not a short movement skill. As for having the movement label, personally I would have suggested doing away with the label system entirely. I think the labels cause more problems than they solve. That said, given that Dodge allows you to move if you succeed - if we must have labels, then probably Dodge does merit having the movement label I guess. As Discover - making it a short movement skill works well from a gameplay perspective in my opinion. But yeah, I wish they'd have found a way to do it that was less bizarre. Maybe if they had called them something like Primary Skill instead of Short Skill, and Secondary Skill instead of Short Movement Skill. Anyway, it is what it is.
