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Why to have useless rules/skills in N4

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Barsik, Jan 18, 2021.

  1. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    Imho, if Shock would only grant +3 Dam ton non HI and non STR units, it wouldnt be so binary, impactful and therfore a lot easier to balance.
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    And it's still relevant, because we can talk about the shift from late N3 to N4 and what happened there. Shock dropped slightly in prevalence, but Shock Immunity proliferated madly.
     
  3. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think that Shock's role has changed slightly, both in it's application, but also as a result of the changes around it. Which is why I don't think N3 conclusions are quite as relevant.

    It's an order efficient means to turf cheap warbands while often being basically free as it's combo'd with another useful ammo type or just the default ammo is the weapon.
    This is a benefit in the limited order format of n4.

    So it makes sense that models intended to have more durability are now immune to shock.
    NWI still carries the disadvantage of not being doctorable after 2W. So it's prevalence in haqq is self balancing.

    Shock was too prevalent in n3, and useful in a lot of situations.
    I think it's use has depreciated, but continues to function as a soft nerf to warbands and troops who get the extra wound but aren't intended to be fully 2w troops.

    But some troops have gained the wounds with immunity as extra durability, contrasted to armour durability. Which is now viable and attractive.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You're following the sharpshooter fallacy here. You're assuming that the only case its still useful in in N4 is what it was intended to do.
     
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  5. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Just because something happens to meet the criteria of a fallacy doesn't automatically makes it wrong. You need to try a little harder to dismiss points you disagree with.
     
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  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    They also handed out red furies like candy late N3 and in the transition to N4.
     
  7. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    Thank you Triumph for the exceptional writeup, including the numbers for O12. Pulling on that thread a little bit...

    If you took notes when you did this, I'd be curious to see which factions have shock immune profiles that are specifically nasty. Two very similar examples are the Kamau and Grenzer multisnipe profiles - he's very difficult to beat in ARO, and you basically have to do 2 wounds to that motherfucker in one FTF roll otherwise he's falling prone into total cover, and he's probably getting back up from a nearby doctor.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    My point is, your statement that "I think that Shock's role has changed slightly, both in it's application, but also as a result of the changes around it. Which is why I don't think N3 conclusions are quite as relevant." can be discarded, which makes the rest of your post fairly meaningless.
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I've missed the leap where you concluded my point could be discarded for any reason other than you don't like it and it fits the criteria of a fallacy..

    It certainly does make it convenient, I can see that.
     
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  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Gotta admit you lost me at the start.
    Shock counters... Warbands? In ARO? Hm I'd rather have DA/EXP/Stun on my ARO stuff anyway.
    In Active? Honestly I'd rather have B4.

    How many Warbands care about Shock anyway, considering a lot of them do not have Cubes it can't be the doctoring aspect, right? Got curious and made a list

    Doesn't care:
    Krakots, Kendrat, Magisters, Monks, Yuan Yuan, Kum Twin1, Kum Twin2, Desperados, Mavericks, Antipode Pack, Bearpode, Dog Warriors, Devil Dogs, Cameronians, Duroc, Mc Murder, Irmandinhos, Überfall, Morlocks, Daturazi, Taigha, Oznat, Myrmidions, Eudoros, Machaon, Penny, Makaul, Musashi
    =28

    Does care:
    Lian Kai, Kuang Shi, Mutts, Carmen, Kum, 45th, Varangians, Perseus, Jaguars, Gakis, Pretas, Myrm Officer, Hippolyta, Yojimbo
    =14

    Didn't count stuff like Aragoto, Montesa, Wulvers (more of a HI) or Phoenix (no Impetuous) all of which don't care about Shock anyway.
    Occasional nice to have.

    I like Shock as a mechanic. Especially the choice on Multi vs i.e. ARM2 LI/MI.
    Not a fan at all of the Shock vs NWI/Dogged dynamic though. Standard SMGs should never have had it (or should be stuck with it and have no choice and no AP the same as SRs).
    At least SMGs price is more justifiable now that it's extremely dangerous to be stuck with 8" positive Rangebands against ubiquitous DTWs/Shotguns.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Your post can be discarded because it's a post facto rationalization of what happened. There's no assurance that the implementation of Shock in N4 is all going perfectly according to some plan.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think SMGs should have just been assault pistols.
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I think that it's largely all fine tbh
     
  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Kind of where I was going with "soft" counter, and yeah I was mainly referring to dogged/NWI troops who typically pack something you don't want landing on you. Dogged/NWI is often a skill that counters positioning as if typically gives you space to cross a larger gap than basic 1W troops would be able to.
    In my experience that latter list has a lot of some of the most common warbands and cheapest warbands. The quintessential units you will want to run up and trade up on something.

    and what are you considering a warband ? it can't be the army category because thats wild. But Magisters, Eudoros, machaon, penny don't really fit in the same room as Mutts, varangians etc. I'll accept that I started with using warbands as the label, which is unclear in the first place.
    I'm also a bit lost on your criteria as several of the "doesn't care" list don't have a valour skill thats relevant to the shock discussion.

    Do you mean you like shock just killing things dead so no chance for doctoring? But you don't like how NWI/Dogged vs shock has been implemented - can you elaborate on that?

    I definitely don't like that SMG's get both shock and AP. It devalues multi-rifles a fair bit. But if all SMG were shock. I'd be OK with that.
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
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