This is a good challenge, thank you. I'm no IA player, but here's my attempt. This feels like a one-trick pony but it's specifically for killing Obvious Lts as you suggested. Like @Tourniquet said, just carpet-bombing whatever you think is the Lt. is a decent option against Nomads. Grenade Launchers aren't bad for that. 2-3 orders to advance to within 24", possibly shooting whatever wants to prevent that. Then 6-7 orders to just Spec Fire away. One to consolidate after. Sweepers are in the fireteam to advance with and follow up with later. Some spare team members standing nearby if needed to reup the team. Or there's a Liu Xing if you see a hole one can fit into, either for a Spotlight or a hardy boarding shotgun. Can either try for a Targeted or just Oblivion the guy if there's no Engineers around. Group two has two Panguling to put Fairy Dust on the Liu Xing and then assist the jump. Then a Zencha to either drop mines and go into Supp Fire or actually try to get an FO on something really annoying that isn't the Lt, so it can be grenaded. Not much resiliency in here, but that's IA I guess? If I weren't just building to whack the Lt. with Spec Fire, I'd put a Zanshi hacker in there to join the link and enjoy the Tinbot protection, and a KHD somewhere else to hit whatever tries to hack the Zanshi to weaken the link. Again though, not an IA player. Spoiler: Lt Nomad Gonna Die
Yeah, hard pressed to take objectives and wasting most of a turn just to get into range - conditional of course on there not being anything stopping them (like a generic camo holding ARO until the Zhanshi GL shows up) when recognising what the Yu Jing player is trying to do. Keeping in mind you can't run Fairy Dust and Controlled Jump at the same time without one program being forced to shut down. Not sure the assassination run actually manages to net an advantage when trading turn for turn. It's not actually about assassinating the LT, it's about the cost of doing so that I was trying to dig at. For Shas or Hassassins the cost is trivial, sure, but for many others it is very possible but tactically not all that sound. Sure it sucks to feel like it is the opponent dictating the course of play in this way (unless you spend some 22ish points and two unit slots on decoy order mooks as was mentioned) but in the context of the thread; does that really merit the kind of power spikes mentioned in the OP? Especially since faction design assume you use them
@Mahtamori you play IA so your opinion is more informed. From where I sit though, advancing a decent link to the midfield (sweeping anything that's standing against it probably thanks to the linked AP HMG or MSV MMR choice), putting at least one killer piece in their rear, and putting a camo HI on suppressive fire in the midfield isn't a loss, even if the opponent -isn't- in LoL. Rules question: I do see the limitation that a Trooper can only benefit from one Supportware at a time (p. 59). However Controlled Jump isn't on the Liu Xing though, it's on the EVO Hacker itself (p. 63). Not sure how that works out, being that the roll to AD is made before ARO declaration by the opposing hacker. If it doesn't work that way, seems like a Liu Xing could still be useful to take out flank protectors, then just go in with his boarding shotgun. Also one less Panguling needed, and more points to put on that link team.
That's how I try to play IA. Not even going to pretend that's how things pan out, but I try to take ground cautiously and dig in. On supportware; yeah, it's one of the weirder interactions because of how Controlled Jump works, and I'm not too confident it's meant to be cancelled, but the text is "A Supportware Program is automatically cancelled if the Trooper or Troop Type targeted by the Supportware is targeted by a new Supportware Program" It's clear that turning Fairy Dust (REM) on will cancel any and all running Assisted Fire, but Controlled Jump is a bit both ways about it. Liu Xing really seems designed to skirmish with the lower priority pieces, and that's fine. Anyway, I wasn't trying to make it about IA vs Nomads. IA was just the lowest hanging fruit, kind of like if Haqq is designed to exploit a Nomad's LT weakness; Nomads are designed to exploit a Yu Jing's reliance on hackables. It's not a true rock-paper-scissor situation, thankfully.
Don't underestimate the Zencha's ability to decap a list by itself (I do similar things with the MR sombra currently), I have been put into LoL many a time from one of these sneaking their way in and blowing away my LT, and due to them starting way up the table they don't need that many orders to pull it off and it wont really detract from what else you are doing that turn. An infiltrating camo marker can pretty much get anywhere and kill anything.
Mahtamori, do you want a flawless plan against nomad lt that doesn't affect the overall mission? that's impossible, sorry. But that happens for everything in the game, against all factions! there is no flawless plan against anything, and almost all "specific plans" affect the overall mission. But for example, the liu xing option against nomads is usually stronger than against other factions: nomads have the most obvious lts, except for a few of them they are weak, there is no CoC (unless there is spec ops, which also will make it "visible" to an smart enemy), now there is no camo lt, and the hacker lts are less used than before (maybe now that firewall is back, they will return to be a better option). Other factions will have more possible options, hidden behind holoecho/camo, CoC, more "candidates" deployed and so. Also, since beggining n3, nomads and other factions have been forced to bring "special tools" (I usually refeer this as "answers") against options of other armies ("questions"), while a few factions just needed their standard "questions" to deal with other "questions". Now, since a lot of time, hacking is algo something to think about (because a lot of more people is bringing more hacking compared to n3) while that is not something unique to nomads, just making one of nomads usual "answers" more usefull than in n3 (but actually its the repeater network) lastly, this... Normal smoke is something too common to say its "something nomad". Eclipse smoke... having just 1 vainilla/sectorial and 1 sectorial only options, I would not say it's something "nomadish", more like it's another "answer" we are forced to bring. White noise it the option you mean, and again, that's an "answer" tool. "super-strong"... to me, something "super-strong" is when something's performance is usually over average, or cheaper while at the same time having the same performance as others... having a linked BS13 with MSV1+markmanship being more expensive (both individually and the complete fireteam) than a BS13 mimetism + MSV2 is not "Super", specially when that dude is the most expensive individually of all similar options and only gets so strong in a not so strong sectorial. Strong? yes, of course, as many other similar options in the game that were allready there, but also have options. Super? nah. Super were proxys in N3, where MK2+any of the 10 points proxy were still cheaper than any Similar TO trooper without any of the MK2 perks (And obviously, without the support of the 10-points proxy). STrong attack pieces? which? Kriza? one of the few HI in the game that got a nerf but also didn't go down in points at all, and mostly all other attack pieces remain the same as n3 because they are MI (with a little overcost in the observance part) or just got the standard HI discount (that all other HI got, except the really scarry S5). Also, the command structure is not only meant to refeer to the CoC, but also other commandment skills, like LT2 or strategos, which help in the order pool
I don't particularly want any faction at all to have a flawless plan and with the factions I do play I can tell you with certainty and experience that a flawless plan against Nomads doesn't exist. The closest I can get is with (unsurprisingly) Dahshat and it involves (again, this will come as a total shocker) cramming McMurrough down my opponent's throat. That usually doesn't work, but McMurrough also isn't all that expensive and typically takes something down with him - even if that something is like 6-7 regular orders from my opponent's turn. You may need to take a good look at your faction and at a bunch of other factions. You go through a laundry list of things and explain them away without seeming to stop to think "Hey, does my opponent even have the option for all of these? Or even half of them?". The Nomad thing is to have the entire toolbox (usually on more than one profile and seldom expensive) and that's super-strong in and of itself, and that's what people who primary other factions tend to react to when Nomads with each new release seem to get another option for what is otherwise a rare tech, but looking beyond that Nomads also have two very distinctive extreme spikes in two of their sectorials as Zewrath detailed in the original post. Now, this thread isn't about Nomads. This is about those strong ones, who incidentally tend to require a sectorial to actually get ludicrous. Your fireteamed Kriza to get sufficient burst that the Gamma no longer seem slightly better, the Riot Grrls who really got a cush deal out of N4's MSV changes while maintaining their discount from the non-drawback that is Frenzy, and the new Grenzer sniper who just like the previous two really does require a Fireteam to go off the charts. But these are examples and there are others out there in other factions. Not all factions have examples of them, but this is a selection specifically filtered for Nomads (and yes, I did add Grrls that Zewrath didn't in the OP) What started the whole side debate was that I kind of started arguing with the claim or perceived claim that the Nomad ones are fine because the Nomad's LT is obvious, there are no CoC, using multiple LT doubles like many if not most lists do isn't really an option, and that any opponent will have a list capable of exploiting this weakness. Strictly speaking there are some more or less harsh examples of weaknesses in most factions. They may not be obvious, but most have them, so why doesn't the extreme examples exist in most factions? Though to be clear, I'm not asking for them. List building suffers from a sectorial designed around the premise that you always use them. My philosophy is that instead of having harsh weaknesses be an excuse for seemingly arbitrarily applied extreme strengths, perhaps not have either. And CB has shown an ability to address these things before both by addressing some of the least fun interactions and by improving weaknesses that was a bit out of hand. But well... they also did increase the number of more extreme profiles at the same time... Last but not least, I will say this much on the topic of IA trying to assassinate Nomad LT before I leave it; Liu Xing isn't good at this specific job. Liu Xing doesn't have fancy gear or an extreme stat line and can be zoned out by Hacking, which is a primary strength of the Nomads. Use this to your benefit as it will also provide protections specifically against Hulang and Zhencha. No, you can't use this to protect all your figures, as this would make the investment higher than the benefits of doing so, but you can protect your high value miniatures this way and let the Liu Xing have conventional combat with the low-value miniatures.
God, my experience exactly. I can never get Nomads to work because half my list is LT decoys and nothing seems able to shoot for shit. I thought I was just bad at the game, but now I see I'm bad and theres some legit concerns with the faction to make that worse.
Every faction has some weakness, but does that one weakness garant Nomads having every tool in the game plus the Grenzer/Kriza/Riot FT aberrations? Why doesn't PanO get all of that? They don't have smoke anyway Why doesn't YJ? They are super vulnerable to hacking after all Why doesn't Ariadna? They have almost no MSV and no hacking Etc, etc... But out of all the factions only one has access to the FT aberrations on top of also getting every trick in the book. Why? And seriously, Armihaul, how can you go over EVERY TOOL THE GAME HAS while simultaneously explaining why it's not such a big deal Nomads have it and not realize Nomads has ALL OF THEM. If it were PanO instead you would be in every thread claiming CB had an obvious bias because they loved PanO.
No to interrupt your aneurysm @Benkei but weak command is a really -big- achilles' heel. Going into LoL is an autolose against a competent opponent unless you're playing Morats or MO. Putting Nomads in LoL is pretty easy unless they have gimped their list to conceal their Lt., as others stated above.
It's fucking not unless that LT is in a retarded spot, and triple that difficulty curve when the vast majority of your attack pieces are hackable. I don't have the orders or model count to spam suicide warbands up the table that far anymore. Not everyone can just put a Speculo next to the LT and call it a day. To which my remark to that nomad player is you sir are an idiot, you knew there's a possible Speculo and didn't make your obvious LT going second your reserve piece. The only person to blame here for being in LoL is you.
... erm... that's a few wild statements I'll need a bit more details on. LoL turn 1 is autolose? How is MO dodging that bullet then? Morats have quite possibly severe problems at winning games to begin with, so it's definitely nice LoL doesn't cripple them as well. Assuming LoL is autolose, I'm not so sure running multiple potential Lts is gimping the list since it's contributing towards not suffering and automatic loss, no? Granted I don't disagree it is relatively doable to put a Nomad player going 2nd in LOL. Impersonation, AD and Spec Fire can bypass the multilayered swamp that is a Nomad DZ. However all of that requires some dicey rolls that can fail. And you're not getting that Interventor that easily if his WIP15 lets him got first or if you can't get to him turn 1. Cybermask and his own Hacking combined with the usual Nomad shenanigans makes him as secure as you can make an obvious Lt. To clarify, I do hate LoL as a mechanic with a passion. My favourite CA list at the moment is Anathematic Lt and Caliban CoC and I've never loved anything as much as this list.
I disagree with most of the chosen wording, but Triumph has a point here. A majority of factions aren't able to reliably exploit this weakness, as much of an effect as it has, without taking extremely specific gimmick builds that will ruin their chances of winning against anything else. PanO and Yu Jing lack advanced approach options of any kind beyond AD, Nomads have only Bran who's a bit rubbish, Ariadna have Uxia in many factions but lack Combat Jump, etc. Spec Fire is the old answer for this but it's horrid outside of a Core now, and the GML/Spotlight trick requires Pitcher access. Early LoL ruining all those order-intensive subversive strategies hurts, especially against Impersonators or Oniwaban, but honestly in a lot of games there won't even be a way for an opponent to make the approach in 10 orders, let alone secure the kill. In addition, many Nomad LTs are obvious but useful. HD+, SWC weapon options, heavily-armoured CC-competent HI and 9-point cheerleaders that put most CC experts on a coin flip aren't exactly poor choices- especially compared with something like PanO, whose only real choice for a good LT is some flavour of Joan or certain TAGs.
Wut. Nomads have the capacity to put just about anybody in LoL who can't hide their LT under a marker. You put a pitcher on the LT from one DZ to the other, you spotlight it, then you feed it missiles. Or you can just Oblivion it if it's hackable.
Not having several unobstructed fire corridors between DZs should mitigate that strategy quite a bit.
I did mention the Pitchers, the section you're quoting was referring to advanced deployment options, though I admit I could have been a bit clearer.
Which allows Pandas to do the exact same thing trivially. If you don't take the extreme distance on the hacking threat seriously from Nomads they'll fuck your shit up very quickly.
Your levels of inexperience against hacking competent opponents is showing. They don't even need to leave their side of the table to project repeater intrusion into an opponent's DZ to start picking at targets. Not to mention simply assuming every army actually has some kind of midfield defense to stop a Heckler moving across the halfway point and isn't largely reliant on projecting AROs from their own DZ is a pretty stupid assumption. Look at the Starmada roster, they basically don't have any of that shit to speak of.
