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In their headlong rush to make it powerful, Immunity (Total) has gotten very, very stupid.

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The FAQ ruling that it works on the Sepsitor is another case of the skill being made lore-breaking. It's supposed to be this scary, spooky tech and now all of a sudden the Human Sphere has the means to counteract it. Dog-warriors were supposed to be vulnerable to stun and adhesive, to the point of Loup-Garous carrying that kind of equipment to deal with them.
     
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  2. TenNoBushi

    TenNoBushi Well-Known Member

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    I don't see much a problem as it is a (very) limited interaction.
    There are maybe 5 profiles with Total Immunity and a Cube (2 Sun Tzu, Bronze, Namurr on top of my head, maybe one or two I missed), and 4 profiles with a sepsitor. So the chances they face each other and the fact that sepsitor would be determining in the interaction (instead of just shooting with your massive guns with highter burst in active) are low.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They don't have the tech?

    They've managed to make a rare few individuals that are fortified enough to withstand it, at least for a short while, but that is far and away from enough to make the trillions of cubes of the sphere immune, or even the hundreds of thousands of service members. There's also the known disconnect between some of the game's systems and the settings systems. E.g. all Fusiliers have MSV, high quality MSV if memory serves.

    Just because the cubes of Namurr, Sun Tze, and Chimeras are resistant to Sepsitor in game doesn't mean they necessarily are so in the setting. There's also a few primarily Hassassin units who have offline backups but who don't get any cubes or rules for it in game to make them immune to Sepsitor as they should be.
     
  4. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes a combined player crying about having the absolutely strongest army in the game .


    Anyway any nerf to the avatar is a welcome one

    The thing about sensitor was already in the rulebook. The faq seems to be made mostly for people who can’t read like the burst from
    Pistols who that was already also in the rules.
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Plasma was.

    Sepsitor weapons in the rulebook didn't interact with Immunity (Total) in any way, as they didn't have a 'State: X' Trait to be cancelled, and use Normal ammo.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Bruh, I play Onyx - no sepsitor. And I play USARF with Total Immunity on the Devil Dogs.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Not true about the Fusiliers in the rpg, and how expensive is Valkyrie's merc gear? She doesn't have the backing of a nation-state and she can afford it.
     
  8. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I'm gonna take your bait here.

    I agree CA is at the strongest it has ever been since start. It is probably one of the best armies in the game right now.

    But the aspects, especially the Avatar, still feel quite underwhelming. The avatar is THE MOST EXPENSIVE MODEL IN THE GAME, and it still gets punked by 9 point warbands.

    Honestly, I kinda like it that TI doesn't work against sepsitor. I don't think that's a problem. I don't care if TI is strong. It's supposed to be.

    But the avatar needs a buff. I would take at least a nanopulser for defense against sepsitor-immune troops. That would help a lot.
     
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  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    And it's totally a problem with the Avatar who mostly alpha punks everything on the table, not the CC capabilities of 9 pts warbands who still need to get delivered.
     
  10. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Mate, the avatar costs a little more than 1/3 of the list. Even generating 4 orders on its own, even with all the buffs it got this new edition, which are very good buffs, by the way, it doesn't matter.

    and keep in mind most egregiously low costed warbands were also nerfed. To the point where other models can deal with them relatively easily.

    The problem with the Avatar (and this applies to other Aspects in a lesser scale) is a combination of:
    -Expensive model;
    -Expensive army making support models also expensive;
    -Obvious, glaring weakspot (it pretty much can't do shit against CC);

    Now, this can be mitigated. It is possible. And sepsitor doesn't even factor in the count. It's mostly a fluffy weapon. It doesn't matter to the effectiveness of the Avatar. Complaining about it, at least for me, is pointless.

    But the big boi needs just a little tip to become more effective. A template weapon like a nanopulser (or better yet, a pulzar) would go a long way into helping it. Or hell, if they wanted to make it really OP they could give it an SMG. Then it would be stupid.
     
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  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    You mean unkillable. Buffing the Avatar. What next, Achilles? Oh, there was a thread about buffing him as well xD
     
  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Wow.. Didn't think I see someone genuinely arguing the Avatar needs to get better...
     
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  13. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I'll argue that achilles needs a buff too.

    these models are expensive and they force you to pay not just for them but for their support too. And more often than not they will create a cascade effect where if they go down your list is easily defanged.

    Yeah, Avatar+Speculo is a thing. Yeah, it is very powerful. It also goes down to focused specialised fire like anything else in this game.

    The difference is I usually can recover from losing Sheskiin, a Charontid or even a Raicho. Usually there's no recovering from losing the avatar.
     
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  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    "MEGALODRON NEEDS A BUFF, CB! I CAN'T RECOVER FROM LOSING HIM AND HE DIES IN TWO OR THREE TURNS IF ALL ENEMY MODELS SHOOT AT HIM"
     
  15. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Mate, you realize this is the kind of thing that makes people think you're a troll, right?

    I get it, you disagree. I'm trying to argue my point here in a civilised manner. If we're going to get into ad hoc arguments and shouting matches, I'll excuse myself, that's not what I came here for.

    Note that I do not agree with the OP that TI needs a nerf, I only brought up that I think the problem isn't the sepsitor weapon getting a nerf, but that the platforms that carry it, in special the Avatar, feel underwhelming. If you disagree with that point you are welcome to bring up your experiences and/or thoughts on the matter.

    Cheers and let's be excellent to each other, mates.
     
  16. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Mate, I'm not the one insisting on buffing two most broken pieces in the game. You're either trolling yourself or you seriously need to git gud.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Not to argue for an Avatar buff, but all the stuff it gets hardly do anything for survivability against a large chunk of extremely effective dedicated counters.
    E/M Grenades/GLs/Wildparrot, any competent CC guy with a way to get past a Sepsitor (Smoke, Marker State or no Cube... which is basically all of them), MSVs with high damage potential vs TAG ARM (Karhu FB comes to mind) do not care much if they fight a Gecko or a more than twice as expensive Avatar. The difference in survivability here is a pip of ARM/BTS or two after it gets halved.
    A Cutter on the other hand has significantly higher durability by having both Hidden Deployment and Marker State on top of more points to put into screening and secondary assault pieces.

    Not saying the Avatar is bad, it's a solid TAG, but I don't think it's a very good list concept on the high end of things considering how easy it is to kill and how many options you have to slow it down. It's tuned wrong, in the end it's pretty much so expensive that it ends up a glasscannon due to the massive pricetag attached outscaling it's survivability.
    Don't even get me started on running an Avatar as Order battery for a Speculo rambo spree. Which is something I see time and time again and speaks volumes about how much people are aware the Avatar is extremely fragile.

    It doesn't stop there.
    Another level is how hard it hits you if your Avatar dies. It leaves a hole of 4 Orders you definitely payed for with its budget. It has all the downsides of a Manned TAG, by Mnemonica basically preventing you from recovering your TAG unless you want to be in LOL. Cutter down? Deal another 2 Wounds to it to actually kill it, that's quite often two more effective wounds to remove a much cheaper and more survivable TAG that doesn't serve as single point of failure for your list.
    You can trade away another TAG fine for crippling damage. Kill 5 dudes turn 1, soak some Orders die for it, come out ahead. Which can be a key feature in utilizing a TAG in objective based missions (not so much in kill missions). The Avatar sucks at this.
    An Avatar list basically can not afford to go second against someone out to get it. You have a Noctifier, a Speculo, a TR Bot, the Avatar himself and a bunch of chaff. That's not enough to actually prevent someone to get to you in N4.
    Vaul ran an Avatar List in an early N4 tournament that showcases nicely how the thing just randomly gets stuck or dies in freak accidents when you look at it for longer than that one game where it roflstomps an opponent who wasn't equipped to deal with it.

    Enough derailing though.
    TL:DR Avatar is massively overrated imho, B+ being generous.
    Vanilla CA shares the top spot as most powerful faction with Nomads and Aleph at the moment. You can do much, much better than an Avatar.
    The EI TAG does what it does, but it's far, far less optimized for N4 than Proxies, Puppetactica, Überfallkommando, Anathematic, Karhu, Achilles or Cutter. I'd be all for reworking it into more of a Command and Control role instead of its current "all eggs in one basket" iteration.

    Achilles V2 on the other hand.... seriously, how did the guy get even better than in N3? Mindboggling. There was a reason Achilles lists were my go to choice for Aleph in competetive play. Really makes me wish CB did something like patchnotes, with small adjustments every couple months to update stuff, rather than only with new books and editions.
     
    #17 Teslarod, Jan 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I mean until we have conclusive evidence that people running the Avatar/EI Aspects are having trouble winning games, I'd slow that roll. My argument about the Sepsitor was a fluff-based one, it had nothing to do with balance.
     
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  19. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I'm still holding out hope they do changes to rules and models more frequently than edition changes this edition. It's been alluded to a fair bit for n4.

    More like what helllois does with ITS but on a rules level rather than bolt-on, to change the meta and breathe more life into older profiles.
     
  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Lol at Avatar needing buff.

    TAGs are monsters this edition, and it might be the best one.

    Nothing should be an auto win button that counters everything.
     
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