1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Westphalian Sovereignty and Infinity

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    1,329
    You just improved Uprising out of sight with this sentence. Which is sad, really.
     
    Stiopa, Devil_Tiger and Hecaton like this.
  2. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2019
    Messages:
    383
    Likes Received:
    494
    I think the YuJing - O12 powers question can be explained in part that the YuJing state is a successor state, for all that China won the war with russia in the history. For all the talk that the Party remained in power, they did have to bring back a monarchy to retain popular sovereignty, and gave up judicial powers in order to do so. Having also bargained away some extraterritoriality to O12 in exchange for the space to reorganize internally seems like a reasonable thing to have happened.
     
  3. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    5,384
    That people can't wrap their head around why the Yanjing might consistently underestimate the machinations of a group who they explicitly believe to be inferior to them intellectually, socially and indeed racially is quite entertaining to me. It was a massive blind spot to them, which is understandable given that they already have their minds full of the obvious threats (PanO, CA etc). They overlooked and underestimated the threat that came from the Kuge, in a very much not unrealistic way.

    Also is this just a thinly veiled "I'm still mad about Uprising thread" hmmm yes I think it might be.
     
    Cthulhu363 and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Again, you can write a story that doesn't hit all of the unlikely and unbelievable scenarios at once. Seems more like they took the plot of a series of role playing sessions where the story naturally revolves around the actions of a few individuals with heroic luck, and turned it into a story piece because they needed it to make changes to JSA. Also, the near total loss of loyalty with Japanese people is very odd, both among the privileged where some will want to continue enjoying their privileges and among the masses where some will prefer the devil they know. Groups of people aren't all that often so one-dimensional.

    Basically, they had the opportunity to turn up the tension between factions, but instead they turned the doomsday clock forward a few minutes, which is the wrong knob to fiddle with in a black ops game setting.

    While I've reconciled myself with Rage Crane, I'm still holding judgement of the aftermath as I think the plot line has left O-12 with a huge loss of political face and a massive beef to reclaim from Pan-O (they allowed Pan-O get away with threatening Yu Jing with all out war, seemingly by asking forgiveness instead of permission, which should leave everyone but Pan-O kind of wary of what Pan-O might decide to do against them in the future with the safeguard of O-12 seemingly bending to their will). Additionally, I'm waiting for the whole thing to turn arse up on Hexahedron, like almost all super-power-supported extremist insurrections have done in history - one of darkly humorous things the universe treats us to.

    With that said, I'm also waiting for someone to put this thread into relation with what's up on Dawn and Ariadna's struggles to get recognition as the rulers of the fought-over continent and the other super-powers rush to get hold of all that juicy "unobtanium".
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    In theory they think the same thing about the PanOceanians.
    I mean what happened in Uprising was pretty weird, so yeah, it's worth mentioning, as it kind of showed that in the Human Sphere, sovereignty (for anyone except O-12 and maybe PanO) isn't really a thing, and everyone seems to be ok with that.
     
    #25 Hecaton, Jan 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,294
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    Aren't the decisions made by O-12 effectively made by the component nations as a whole though? It's not O-12 itself that makes the decisions but the members of the councils that draw from the various nations, while O-12 have seats on those councils so do YJ, Pan-O, Nomads, etc. I guess that makes them closer in model to the current EU than the current UN.

    Though I'll also admit that due to recent events in my birth country the term "Sovereignty" has become somewhat loaded and tends the conjure images of blue passports, economic damage, and confiscated ham sandwiches at the border.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    #freetheham

    That should still severely damage the confidence that Yu Jing, Haqq, Ariadna, the entity that governs the planet Concilium, and whatever political representation the old earth countries have on the council, have about the O-12 project and its function as a peacekeeping organisation for ultimately mutual benefits. And validate what Nomads have been saying about Pan-O to the others.
    And if it works like the EU it would make the O-12 vast network of trade and cooperation agreements, not all of which you actually have to bind yourself to as long as you accept that you also won't get access to any agreements that depend on them. Notably one of the Big Deal agreements next to free movement of people and finances is mutual defence. Doesn't quite sound like the O-12...

    Do note, I'm not saying this (part about the future ramifications) as a means to whine about the situation, but rather that it sets the bar high for the continuation of the fluff.

    P.s. Also... reminder that the Dawn conflict is essentially a conflict of where Ariadnan sovereignty ends on Dawn and what is up for corporate or colonial grabs. Ditto the conflict on Svalarheima where Yu Jing business interests are challenging Pan-O's sovereignty claims.

    P.p.s. I should probably check whether a hashtag is loaded before I use it as a joke? Anyway..
     
  8. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    387
    When I read Uprising, I couldn't help but think it was, in part, a reaction to various contemporary political developments (Brexit, Catalonia) - not necessarily a commentary on them, but the atmosphere of European politics certainly had an air of secession. I guess I mean more that popular culture has a way of reflecting society which is more than just superficial, and can be itself subtly influenced by its environs. I'm sure this British obsession isn't felt quite so keenly in Spain (I'd be surprised if CB announced Uprising was a direct comment), and perhaps I'm predisposed to notice themes of nationalism and separatism, but it intrigued me more as a contemporary work (like all science fiction), than as "fluff".

    More recently, I suspect the actual experience of "sovereignty", and a less integrated economy, will be far less appealling - perhaps this'll be reflected in all sorts of popular culture.
     
  9. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,130
    I suspect a more likely influence was the business interest in people wanting to play Mercs despite the fact that there weren't many actual Mercenaries at the time, prompting CB to pull the trigger on a long-standing tension in order to free up enough units to create a valid faction (NA2). If Uprising served any role in Infinity's overall themes, it is that it highlights how fractious and self-destructive the HS is even in the face of alien threat; the Kuge aristocracy are certainly well-connected enough to know the true scope of the EI threat, yet destroyed half the supply chains in the Sphere for money and power- and nearly everyone else helped them do it to prop up their own interests. The YJ response was also so poorly chosen that it simply made things worse for them by forcing their citizens to choose a side if they wanted to live.
     
    Dragonstriker and Fire@Will like this.
  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    5,384
    Sovereignty isn't a thing. It's a concept, and it's only worth what you can maintain. Sometimes you can't, and during the uprising, Yu Jing couldn't. That doesn't mean it's never a thing. It means that they couldn't maintain it entirely in that circumstance, which is entirely how things work now (see; Syria, which is a nation whose sovereignty is essentially ignored by the US, UK, France, Turkey, Israel, Jordan etc etc etc all the time, all countries who are UN members and theoretically support fundamental legal sovereignty).

    All of the nations carefully guard and defend their interests to greater and lesser extents. The O-12 intervenes where it feels humanitarian needs are more important than sovereign interests and has the political whack to do so. Nations try to oppose this and often succeed. This is the way of things, it's just that the future UN-equivalent is more powerful and can involve itself more.
     
  11. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    387
    True, and I would entirely expect business decisions to underpin everything like this. I guess it was more of a personal interest in the juxtaposition of the fictional Uprising and contemporary politics. But, then the interpretation of text is in the reader's eye...
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    And again, it begs the question of why Yu Jing would create an international organization that can remove their own sovereignty.
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    5,384
    Because when they made it, they thought that it would be worth it. They thought that it would protect their interests more than it would hinder them, and they maybe thought that any de jure signed over legal authority would de facto still lie with them, in the same way that a lot of countries do all the time right now.

    Sometimes it probably is the case that the O-12 is worth a lot to them, and does protect their interests. Sometimes not, and it's a liability and they probably say "we should never have supported this project!" which is very much like, how these things go.

    Although I would remember that Yu Jing lost the Neocolonial Wars. Arguably they only exist because the other nations including O-12 stopped PanO from taking further steps to permanently cripple and fracture them. Much as Yu Jing is often castigated by the O-12, they also are protected by them to an extent.
     
    Stiopa, Devil_Tiger and Brokenwolf like this.
  14. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1,832
    Because without O-12, PanO dominance would be much greater. PanO is the Hyperpower and has a good amount of power over Yu Jing. If PanO had carte blanche, it would be much worse.

    O-12's general role is to keep the status quo and maintain the balance.
     
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,394
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    And working within O-12 strictures has worked for YJ. Their snatching of Huang Di from PanO is an example, as is the territory they held/hold on Paradiso, as well as the loopholes and conditions forced on Ariadna by both PanO and YJ when Dawn re-connected with the Sphere.
     
    #35 A Mão Esquerda, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    Cthulhu363 likes this.
  16. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    387
    This was equally an argument made about the European Union, and yet that exists...
     
    #36 Fire@Will, Jan 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Eh... eurosceptics will say a lot of things*. Even most europhile political groups are allergic to the idea of the EU interfering with sovereignty or federalising. I think the freedom of movement is as close as it gets, and that one has a lot of dependency agreements attached so that member nations are still able to claim that they have control over their borders.

    * and get away with it, 'cause the EU is kind of complicated to understand (understatement of the day)

    I think at the end of the day the UN and especially the WTO is about as close as we can get with real life comparisons
     
    Fire@Will likes this.
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    China is not Europe.
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  19. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    387
    No. Perhaps this is a difference of experience between the European and the American? I'm not saying that a fictional O12 is directly analogous to the EU, just that Europeans have lived experience of a supra-national body in ways that an American doesn't (in the same way as a British citizen might not intimately understand the difference between state and federal govenment).
     
    toadchild and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    4,262
    Likes Received:
    8,073
    A big source of political tension in the US is different groups disagreeing about which things should be regulated at the federal level (pass one law, it affects everyone) or at the state level (pass 50 laws, which are all different and affect different numbers of people depending on where they live and travel). It’s not a problem with a trivial solution. There have definitely been instances of states questioning if it was ever worth it to delegate that power to Washington DC instead of remaining independent.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation