Ok, I'm sure this is wrong, but I can't figure out why. Active unit Angela moves within the ZoC of reactive unit Ryan, but outside his LoF. Ryan has a valid ARO. Ryan cannot declare BS attack against Angela, because a Requirement of BS Attack is to "Be able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the target of the BS Attack." Ryan declares that he will throw a smoke grenade at a spot on the table. The smoke grenade is a BS attack, and Ryan has LoF to its target (a spot on the table). Therefore, the Requirements are met and Ryan gets to throw smoke even though he never had LoF to Angela. Contrast with Place Deployable, which has a Requirement that "In the Reactive Turn, LoF to the Active Trooper is required." BS Attack has no such Requirement - only LoF to the target is required. It can't be right, so someone show me what I'm missing. Arose here: Active turn blast reactions
Threw this question up in an Infinity chat group and one of them found this under Zone of Control PG 25 in the pdf.
Right that's what I found as well - but the question is what can actually be used without LoF? Jammers specifically say in their rules text "No LOF, Zone of Control" - the implication there is that they work very similarly to a single-purpose hacking program - and hackers can obviously hack as a ZoC ARO - the point is that you're still targeting the trooper that activated even though you can't see them. Various thrown weapons and launchers work without needing to have LoF to an enemy trooper but they'd have LoF to the point on the field that they're being fired at (unless you're doing a Speculative Attack, which you can't do in ARO). However, due to the way that LoF is narrowly defined in the rules (as being to a figure's silhouette), it seems that Targetless attacks sort-of fall into a grey zone. It's one thing to imagine dropping smoke as an ARO if you hear a guy coming around the corner (whether it's allowable or not) but the problem with what I imagine the intent of the rules are would come when an ARO trooper takes advantage of Targetless to just do something completely unrelated to the activated figure, such as launching a pitcher or smoke grenade across the map.
There is nothing in targetless description that allows the use without LoF According to this, Weapon or Equipment must state it can be used without LoF.
It's not an ideal solution. Arguably, smoke grenades are a "weapon that can be used without LoF," inasmuch as the ZoC rule is referring to LoF to the active trooper. The reactive trooper does have LoF to his target (a point on the ground), so it's weird to rely on "you can only use a weapon that can be used without LoF to its target, even though you do in fact have LoF to the weapon's target. Still, given the ZoC rule, this seems like an oversight. Like, that CB wrote the ZoC rule intending that you can't use BS attack with a ZoC ARO, except for jammers... but then forgot how that would interact with smoke. (I think smoke and eclipse are the only weapons where this comes up?) It's enough to convince me to keep playing that you can't throw smoke using a ZoC ARO, but it's not very satisfying as a way to convince players who see it the other way. Especially given the changes to N4 Dodge, I can definitely see an argument that "CB now allows us to Dodge and reposition as a ZoC ARO, and they also allow us to put down smoke as a ZoC ARO. Smoke doesn't require LoF to the active trooper, so it's a 'weapon that can be used without LoF' per the ZoC ARO rule."
Smoke Grenades DO need LoF. To the target point. That is why you have to declare a Speculative Fire to toss another one when you are inside one edit a blatant error
Yeah, but you don't need to target the Trooper that causes ARO with them. You can target somewhere you have LoF too, like the patch of ground at your feet. This should be permitter. If I can Dodge, Turn Face, Alert and everything else because I do have ARO, as well as I could BS Attack in ARO if I saw the target, then using Targetless weapons like Smoke, provided the point (target) you choose is a piece of ground you have actual LoF to, should be permitted. And aside from the rules, if dropping a mine on the ground is a reasonable ARO, dropping a Smoke also should work.
This is completely irrelevant. They require LoF, so cannot fulfil 'unless the Trooper has a Special Skill, weapon, or piece of Equipment that can be used without LoF.'. And you can't drop a Mine on the ground either, in this situation.
Careful now, you're getting close to claiming that smoke in ARO has to target the active trooper ;-) (Place Deployable requires LOF to active trooper in ARO)
So let me just make sure I understand all this (rehashing/rephrasing some obvious stuff just to arrive at the core of the rule): 1) A figure can ARO if it either 'sees' a target via LoF (target refers specifically to a silhoutette/marker/figure - not just a point on the table) OR if a target enters/starts in/passes through its ZoC (assuming Stealth and/or 6th Sense are being taken into account). 2) The chosen ARO must specify a legal target figure (e.g. the active trooper that motivated the ARO). Dodge and Reset either A) don't require a target, per se, or B) identify a target for the sake of measuring a legal ZoC but still allow F2F rolls against multiple potential attackers if necessary and not just the chosen target (in the case of a coordinated order, for example). 3) Hacking programs can target a figure in Hacking Zone (aka ZoC) and therefore are legal ZoC ARO. Likewise, Jammer is a piece of equipment that functions the same way. 4) The Place Deployable skill specifically requires LoF in order to be legal in ARO (p.87, though not normally) and therefore can't be executed as a ZoC ARO. 5) This is where I get lost a bit... @ijw you are saying that a targetless thrown weapon is NOT "a Special Skill, weapon, or piece of Equipment that can be used without LoF" Is the reason for this just the fact that, say, a Smoke Grenade does not show in its weapon text "NO LOF, ZONE OF CONTROL" like a Jammer does? Otherwise if you take it just on the face value of the Smoke Grenade's abilities... a Smoke Grenade is a BS Attack (thrown) and so would normally require LoF BUT it is also Targetless, which means it can be used without designating an enemy as the target, which sort-of contradicts/supercedes the BS Attack rules. What is the difference between being able to legally throw a Smoke Grenade in the active turn (without LoF/target) to a spot you can see on the table (not a speculative attack) and throwing the same grenade to the same spot as a reaction to someone breaching your ZoC?
Please read again what you wrote. The fault is just there. You have to see the spot. If not, it is not a BS Attack but a Speculative Fire. And SpecFire is an Entire Order skill that cannot be declared in ARO
The issue is that a "targetless" weapon isn't without a target, regardless what the rules hint at. It is a weapon that can target any piece of game surface instead of a trooper, but it still targets it. Targetless remains as one of the previous edition(s)' poor word choices as there's places in the rules that requires a targetless weapon to still target the same target as something/someone else.
Right I understand that "targetless" is wonky - the reason why I specified 'a point on the table' but didn't refer to it as a 'target' is because it seems like there is actually some distinction in the rules that a TARGET be a figure, essentially (and I'm wondering if @ijw 's ruling is based partly on the definition of Target[?]). I don't think there's anyone arguing that a speculative attack can be done in ARO (since it obviously can't) - but throwing a grenade to a spot you can see on the table is not speculative, even if you could do it in ARO, right? The question is why is it legal to throw a smoke grenade at your own feet in ARO when you have LoF to the active troop, vs illegal to throw the smoke grenade at your feet as a result of a ZoC ARO? I'm not arguing that it should be legal or not, just trying to understand the logic in such a way that doesn't also somehow make it illegal to throw a smoke grenade in front of yourself in the active turn without LoF to a figure (without it somehow becoming a spec attack).
I always thought of Targetless as "I declare a BS Attack that do not need to target the actual Enemy target I am declaring it against." That way it makes sense for me that you cannot do it as a ZoC / no LoF ARO. You are still declaring a BS Attack against the enemy activated, so it needs to _see_ the target (although then the smoke can be placed in a spot that is NOT the enemy).
