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Units I can't understand

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by haiku, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. haiku

    haiku New Member

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    Hi to everyone!
    I play Infinity since a while, with a big pause between 2018 and N4. My armies are Haqqislam, Yu Jing and Thoaa.
    I noticed a pretty rework for Haqqislam and Yu Jing, with quite every option in the roster jucy or at least worthy, though Tohaa disapponted me a bit for some units, and given the fact the roster is small, like a sectorial, every choice you struggle to filed becomes a blank spot that weights on your list building and tactical options.
    This is not a whining post, behold, just an ask for help, in order to understand what, blatantly, I can't get.

    First of all Kamael. Ok, they are pretty much the unique hacker choice we have but 12 point for a Ghulam with less WIP and poorer loadout or a Zhanshi who can't join a 5 man link...What is the point to have a spitfire/ML/ Sniper at bs11? Over the Fo and Hacker (sigh) options it seems quite a routine kitting them with heavy weapon options. Especially since the Makaul got contender option.

    Gao Tarsos: I used to field this guy in the past, but in this edition it seems pretty...downgraded. Now ADs jump freely and I should say they are scary. But this poor one seems hindered in his concept. Two wounds (fake wounds since when you get a hit your profile degrade, so they are not two really wounds), no boost for the jump, no particular skill, 30ish point cost. Just one Specialist choice, the only one with D-Charges, a miserable combi. No tear-weapons, no mimetism, shock options, cc and so. Just a costy sakiel (but without the Frenzy, that could have been interesting and e/m damage) without great chance to jump in the enemy lines and to collect blood. As for the specialist role WIP 13 is avarage, not outstanding. What I miss? Please help me.

    IMP-2 Units.
    How I should use them? Coming from Haqq those units (Greif Operator/Kiiutan imposter/Jaan Staar) seems quite dull. I mean, they shot from poorly to avarage with bs 11/12. No shock/ap/k1/Breaker/+1 Dam/Continous options. Ok, some of them wield feral viral pistol, i get it but there an ocean from a Fiday/Spekulo. The effectiveness to my eyes is deeply lower. The Greif brings D-Charges but the bs 11 re-equilibrate the trade off in "I would rather try another option".
    A second problem is the WIP low. WIP 13 don't assure high chance to put them where I want. Since the rework of Impersonation rule now you can deploy them or in your deployment zone or in the enemy deployment band, it's not allowed anymore put them where you prefer. So the WIP roll is fundamental for their effectiveness.
    Third but not least lack of cc/smoke option. How I should move without being killed by AROs and place to kill without any malus/life savers? Ok two (fake) wounds. Mmm...
    And as cherry on top, IMP-2. Why? What was the design issue in giving to Grief the IMP-1 skill? It would have pump it up too much? With a bs11 combi, no tear weapon, no cc options?
    I simply don't now how to exploit those guys. Thoaa became more tricky rather than iron punch now (thank God) but some choices seem put there in order to irritate rather to ignite witty schemes.

    So I ask once more your help to understand these units and implent them in my games. Other solutions, other units are amazing. New e/m granades Sakiel are great (I hated those nimbus), Gorgos at 67 point is juicy, Igao remains a mystery how to use for me but I Know it's me in this case (i simply fail every time to deploy and exlpoit it correctly), new Makaul are startling, the pherowar was exactly what I hoped for long time, the Takeul deserves a miniature already since it's one of the most funny thing in this army and the Kaauri have my love.
    But the units above strike me every time with doubts I can't answer.
     
  2. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    The Kamaels are cheap filler for Triads to get the burst bonus going on more valuable units. Point costs are not only by stats but what they bring for the faction. So being able to fill as a wildcard every linkteam makes them more costly (together with above average PH for a line troop). In other factions I use heavy weapons on line troops more often than in Tohaa. Its just when you got the SWC and points leftover and can't do anything else with them. So just an upgrade if you have spare points nothing else. (I also doubt anybody is building armies around line troopers these days.)

    The Gao Tarsos is a flanking unit, mainly being used with the old Airborne Infiltration like entrance from the side. His advantage is, that 1 single shot ARO can be taken without dying and might allow to get to an otherwise hard reachable spot in the back of some units. He is definitely weaker compared to other AD units and AD is something that is seldom used in our meta as losing that 1 order for some time is often too costly. He punches downwards and is great for hunting Cheerleaders. No real option against strong targets. But if you like AD playstyle it's your only choice.

    I think you misunderstood something with impersonation. You can deploy them everywhere on the game table without roll except the enemy deployment zone like before. Don't roll and just stand in front of the enemy DZ.
    Their main objective is to hunt cheerleader for order starving the enemy. If the enemy plays an obvious LT you can even try to use symbio bomb shenanigans with their ability to re enter their state while having those bombs equipped. This needs you to go first and use one command token to hold them and a Kaeltar back. As well as the enemy making the "mistake" to deploy their obvious LT before.
    They are not assassins like the other Impersonators that are used to take out strong units. They cripple those units by denying them orders from their cheerleaders.

    The Igao is our best Assassin like unit to kill stronger targets in melee. His Mirrorball profile allows us to block LOV even further ahead an allows us free movement. Some people love him and can't play without him, others use him from time to time and some wont find him any useful to their playstyle at all.
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Also, the IMP-2 units can be deployed out of the state, prone, with a symbiobug. Then use it. Then IMP-2 and go on their business, since there is no longer a "lesser Impersonation" skill ^^
     
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  4. haiku

    haiku New Member

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    You're right, I completely miss the very first line of the rule. My bad. Thank you very much.
    And thank you for the analysis, it was something I needed. I catched some bits of the new meta, too, from what you was saying. In our group we are still struggling a bit to find a new balance in N4.For instance ADs are heavy used in order to save order. With one/two orders you arrive where you want instead of make you way through the table. So your comment about the AD made me thinnk about different metas.
    Your statement about LI allured me too. In fact we noticed a preference for HI and multi-wound models but in order to mantain a good pool of order "cheerleaders" are still a good options, simply they are used to fill up some spot, but with effectiveness (as a cheerleader with a big gun and +3 bs for a low price). You imply that now is more effective to go through "elite" choice, spend as much points as possible there and eventually fill up what remain with cheerleaders.
    But this point confirm my idea about Thoaa Imp. If now meta prefers heavy and resilient troops Kiiutan&Co. find themselves quite unprovided for their task. It's quite difficult to chop even the weakest element of a 5 man fireteam in order to starve the the big guys with those kit. On the other hand, now that you clarified to me the impersonation rule (I am a moron) the Greif Operator obtains a good role as camo hunting.


    I read that but with my previous ill-based understanding of the Impersonation rule the trick appeared too random and risky. With this new angle it could be more interesting and adaptive.
     
  5. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    I assume most local metas are different to each other. Ours is mainly dominated by aggressive playstile and high deltas. Something AD units tend not to provide enough. Playing it like you said would mean for us to use the AD as main offensive unit. The Gao Tarsos has to compete with the Sukeul and Draal for it, if you favor linkteams and units like the Gorgos if you prefer single units or G:Synch. At least for us the link teams can handle more situations and kill designated enemies easier. (Similar with other factions and their options.)
    We tend to have 2 strong offensive units. This gives us the advantage to put pressure on both flanks and the enemy has harder times to assassinate one strong unit to cripple your entire army. Elite units have the chance to kill other units more reliably but no matter which cheerleader you pick they all tend to fall against a strong unit coming around pretty easily.

    I don't take a Kiiutan with me all the time but I sometimes do. His job is to kill the enemy engineer before he can repair that nasty TR drone and other cheap cheerleaders to order starve the enemy. While he might have issues killing an Achilles the chance to kill Linetroops are pretty good. Jaan has a template and mines for some nasty mine tricks around the corner.
    Also if you that AD heavy Impersonator and Camo Infiltrator can guard the spots where they could land in marker state getting uncontested ARO as they land killing them before they can even act.

    You still need first turn as otherwise you can't hold both units back so an ~50% chance per game to even start this strategy. If you can fit it in, it's nice to have. Otherwise you might want to skip it.
     
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  6. Monster

    Monster Well-Known Member

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    Short answer .

    kamaels are great specialist triad fillers and a very nice Lt option.

    gao tarsos is a dead unit has been since release almost .

    impersonators: Jan staar is amazing the others are pretty much a waste of points.


    Igao is very good but better in spiral because Makauls exist.

    and the gorgos Is bait, in most lists . Meaning don’t take it
     
  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Disagree on the Gorgos; the overall changes to TAGs in N4 have flowed down well to it, and its a viable option in Tohaa lists with some eclipse smoke support.
     
  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    And it also lost the fire vulnerability and got a severe point discount.
     
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  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Yup. And E/M grenades on the PH12 chaksa! Plus the pilot is strong enough to justify seriously considering her use even after the symbiont armour itself dies, making the total package a full 5 effective wounds for 71pts.

    It thrives in short range engagements thanks to the Spitfire and Chaksa, and especially want to close in on enemy TAGs at the 16" band where it can get in under their range and loose the peripheral to make E/M attacks, but Tohaa have the best visibility control in the entire game, so there's no excuse for not setting it up to take those fights.
     
  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    And going 2nd, you can now leave it / deploy it in Suppression in some nice cover without losing a huge chunk of the rangeband, too. With a Total Imm mate on it and initial effective ARM 12, ignoring AP (and then normal effective ARM 10), it can really take some serious fire, while handing out a lot of AP Spit hate back.
     
  11. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    The Gorgos has no courage so if he gets hit once he needs to pass courage roll or lose sup fire. He is weaker compared to many other TAGs in this area.
    A Gorgos list often has less orders than a list more focused on Triads. Still needing more orders to achieve the kill as he either might need more vision block or average number of rolls to kill a target.

    Is the Gorgos useless? No he isn't but he is also not the best tool or as powerful as other TAGs out there.
    Is the Gorgos fun to play? Yes he is, at least for me.
    He is a typical unit you bring cause you like it or enjoy it. You wont take him when you want the best possible chances to win the game. But than again, we are here to have fun and not to solve math or go into too much theorycrafting like there is in many video games.
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I wouldn't say something was good if I didn't think it was good. Relative to cost I feel like the Gorgos is punching at about the same weight as a Szalamandra or a Raicho, both TAGs with solid baseline stats and a few rules that give them a niche no other model can quite duplicate.

    A lot of opinions regarding the Gorgos seem heavily reliant on inertia from N3 for validation. It's true, it was garbage in N3; we also aren't playing N3 any more. The Gorgos is in a target-rich environment, well-supported by the rest of its faction, costed attractively (you should not struggle to reach 15-16 orders with a Gorgos list), and in possession of some totally unique abilities.
     
  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Here's a relatively straightforward all-comers list that fits a Gorgos with relatively few sacrifices. You could tinker with the groups - I keep putting the paramedic in group two and it keeps not having quite enough orders during games, for example, so maybe it should be in group one - but regardless you can see that it hits 16 orders, three triads, three capable SWC weapons, and the rest of the usual tohaa staples.

    Tall Girl
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    GORGOS AP Spitfire, Flammenspeer, Pulzar / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (1.5 | 71)
    [​IMG] CHAKSA PERIPHERAL B Pulzar, E/M Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (- | 4)
    SUKEUL Heavy Machine Gun, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
    SAKIEL (Lieutenant) Viral Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Contender, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    TAAGMA Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 16)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse, SymbioBomb ( | SymbioMate) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 21)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Contender, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Sensor, Baggage) Heavy Flamethrower(+1 Dam) ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B), E/M Mines / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    NIKOUL VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    DIPLOMATIC (CC Attack [-3], Specialist Operative]) Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, Pheroware Tactics: Eraser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    SAKIEL (Paramedic) Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 19)
    KAELTAR Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse, SymbioBomb ( | SymbioMate) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Contender, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 13)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  14. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    A couple of things to note:
    - I wouldn't give the Gorgos a symbiomate (much more important that the Nikoul and Sukeul get those first) but I'd consider giving it a symbiobomb pretty comfortably.
    - If I knew my opponent had counterintelligence I might put the Gorgos in suppressive fire, but the Kaauri is actually a potential option for that too.
    - The list isn't really obliged to be all about the Gorgos. You'll probably push it up using its tactical awareness order, but there are enough independent attack options that it might be better to charge in with one of the triads, or the Libertos.
     
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  15. Kazgarom

    Kazgarom Member

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    And I would say it's unplayable if I think it's a bad unit.

    Sorry if you get the feeling that I put the unit into N3 context. He had and he has some weakpoints, like missing courage especially if people forget about it. They might be surprised negatively using the unit.

    Than the Gorgos has to compete with other units like the Draal. You get higher chance to survive if you lose a F2F roll, especially if you lose them more often. On the other side, the chance of losing a F2F roll is most times higher on the Gorgos in the first place. The Draal can bring smoke with his triad, allowing to use half of that order to move already, reducing the speed advantage of the Gorgos. If multiple smoke is needed this can even result in needing less orders as you don't need to activate another Unit for it. Being a specialist the Draal might be able to do objectives while advancing as well.

    So always play the Draal?!? No! I just want to show some of the things you could consider before making a choice. You can even go that far as starting to calculate every single possible option. But than we get to the point of hardcore theorycrafting which might not be the most fun way to play this game for you and your opponent.

    I myself wouldn't count irregular orders as normal orders, especially if I can't have enough command tokens to change them or intend to use the unit actively. But I guess that's personal preferences.

    You could also put more units into the 2nd group, to have more flexibility with it. I for myself would most likely put the HMG Sukeul into it with enough orders to clear a path for the Gorgos.

    100% this. There are only a few situations were the Gorgos might be a better option. (The bomb might cost a token and only viable if you go first turn as at least I want to place the Gorgos last and without holding a kealtar back too you can't assign anything to the Gorgos.)

    You already point out the issue that putting a unit into suppressive fire has to cost the enemy at least 2 orders to gain the same advantage as taken 2 orders away from him (only 1 order with counterintelligence). But actually the cost is often higher. If the Kaauri is placed in the open and not in total cover it will most likely die resultung you in losing 3 orders (1 for each of the 3 rounds) so it has to cost at least 4 orders till it dies to the enemy or the enemy got an advantage.
    If still placed in total cover the chance is high that the enemy wont lose a single order cause of it being in suppressive fire.
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I don't want to misinterpret you here; when you said that a Gorgos list often had less orders than a list focused on triads, does the above mean you tend to exclude either or both of the delegate or libertos from your regular lists?
     
  17. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Am I the only one that thinks that the Gao-Tarsos is very good?
    Two wound non-hackable trooper (maybe Specialist) that can appear wherever you want, whenever you want. Enought BS and ARM to win shootouts in Active turn. D-charges for Objectives.

    Not auto-include, but a very nice tool.
     
  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Without an EVO hacker I'm incredibly loathe to try to drop it in on a raw 12, but in missions where parachutist is especially good I could see using it. Like if a mission mix for an event included Firefight and Power Pack, for example, I could see a list with a Gao-Tarsos. If nothing else, it's got surprise on its side.
     
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  19. Barsik

    Barsik Well-Known Member

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    Very good?
    2 fake wounds BS 12 guts roll included,in this category I prefer Mirage-5.
    Crusher and Nahab feels better but they have only one wound...oh wait do they(No Wound Incapacitation=2 wounds without penalties)
    Wait a second have you seen others at all?
     
    #19 Barsik, Jan 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  20. SpectralOwl

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    CA Fractaa is almost a Gao-Tarsos clone, but slightly more optimised for gunfights. All the others you listed are even more costly. The Gao-Tarsos may not be a great fit for Tohaa's big vision-control and link game, but on its own merits it's not at all bad. I'd love to have one in any of my NCA, Bakunin or even MRRF.
     
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