I've encountered this interpretation in a couple of recent games. Active trooper Alice is lurking around a corner. She activates and Moves to peek at reactive trooper Roger from the cover of the corner, then moves back out of sight. Roger declares BS attack, Alice declares BS attack, and we roll the f2f. Alice wins the shootout, but Roger passes his armour saves. Roger fails his Guts roll. Now, Roger wants to get better cover from Alice, and there is better cover less than 2" away (either he can get from no cover to partial, or from partial into full cover, either one is fine for this question). I have always thought that Roger can improve his cover as against the point that Alice shot him from. But, two opponents recently have argued that Roger can't move at all, because he already has total cover from Alice since she ended her movement outside his LoF. So he has to stay in the open and let her keep shooting at him like a fish in a barrel. The Guts rule says that Roger has to leave LoF/gain cover from attackers, but doesn't say whether the cover is measured against the point they attacked from, or the point they ended at. Anyone have any ideas?
Realistically you'd try to improve your cover relatively to the position you were shot at from. But that's RL and logic. I've long learned to not try applying them to the tabletop game of Infinity. Until we get an official ruling on that, we could: accept the RL take above as a forum consensus, or interpret the rules-as-written like your opponents did. I have to admit this is how my meta was interpreting them too: you make Guts roll relatively to the enemy model who attacked you. If it is no longer visible at the end of its Order, you already are in Total Cover relative to it, so you can't make it any better anyway. Therefore Guts roll is of no consequence).
I believe this is still on the list of unanswered questions. However, Guts as a rule doesn't function if guts movement can be denied by popping into and out of LOF, so my preferred interpretation is that an active model occupies all of the space it moves through during its order, and guts movement is taken relative to any or all of this occupied space where possible.
Locally we use it from where the shot was made by the active model as it makes the most sense logically, and for similar reasons made by @RobertShepherd
I do not have this on the list, no. I do note that the words for Guts have changed since N3 and it no longer references "the attack", but the LOF of attackers. I would agree with your interpretation that All At Once would apply for the entire order, but I would add a note that the Guts movement has to leave the LOF of all attacks, not just any.
This is certainly my preferred interpretation as well. I strongly dislike the interpretation where an attacker can trivially deny the target its ability to Guts into cover. Most attacks in Infinity come from around corners where it's easy to choose to end the movement outside LoF. It seems contrary to the design of the game that Guts wouldn't apply. @ijw , any chance you could give us an answer on this one?
Guts occurs during the order sequence and a model is considered to occupy all the spaces it moved through during an order. So would have LOF from the point of the attack. To argue you can't guts would be the same as saying the model didn't have LOF to shoot you in the first place
@Myomer and I talked through this issue for ODD Online, and here's what we settled on: N4. p21: All at Once - "In Infinity N4, Orders and AROs are simultaneous regardless of the Skills declared." Orders and AROs happen simultaneously, but Guts Rolls are neither. N4 p. 21: Order Expenditure Sequence - Step 6, 6.1, 6.2. In the Resolution step, at 6.1 the effects of the declared skills are applied, then at 6.2 Guts Rolls are made and applied. Guts Rolls occur after Orders and AROs, including any associated movement, have been resolved. Therefore, the movement associated with the Guts Roll should be based on the final position of the attacker.
Please see the below underline 6.2. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects. End of the Order. What I mean to say with this is that the entire sequence is the Order and the Order happen simultaneously so it seems your premise for your conclusion may be on a bit of a shaky grounds.
Strong disagree. I appreciate that I'm putting a desired end conclusion first and working my reasoning back to support it, but the guts rules just don't work if the active player has near-total agency over the reactive player's capacity to seek cover.
The wording of p21 is classically vague. But I think you've conflated "orders" with skills as AROs are functionally just skill declarations. But technically within the rules they're a special type of order for the reactive trooper within an active Order. Guts occurs during an Order and [everything within an] order is executed simultaneously, along with AROs, which are technically separate Orders. Guts occurs within an Order. Therefore a model which has moved during an order is still considered to have LoF from all points along that movement.
This one is clear enough given the All At Once ruling and the timing of 6.2 happening at the end of the Order. Sadly it will probably require explicit statement in case people want to be obtuse about it.
As the other posters have pointed out, Guts Rolls take place within the Order/ARO. 6.2. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects. End of the Order. The Order ends after Guts Rolls have been made and applied. So 'Orders and AROs happen simultaneously, but Guts Rolls are neither.' is misleading, because Guts Rolls are part of an Order.
Just for the sake of accuracy; this means that you need to improve cover against all LOF of attacking troopers, not just those LOF that were used to make attacks?
As you pointed out up-thread, there’s no longer any mention of ‘the attack’, so no it’s not based on the position the attack was made from, but all the positions of the attacker(s).
Raising this thread to request a bit of clarification as there seems to be some ambiguity left regarding Guts Rolls, and I can't find a satisfactory official answer. I will post the most relevant rules passages that I can find and underline the part that I find causes the ambiguity Situation: A trooper is in a position where they no longer have LOF to any of the trooper that attacked them. They are also outside the zones and areas of effect. 1. Can this trooper use Guts Roll to move 2" as long as the movement does not put them in LOF of any of the attackers? https://infinitythewiki.com/Guts_Roll "2. If this is not possible, the Trooper must move up to 2 inches to gain Total or Partial Cover from all attackers." Situation: Impetuous trooper is close to a planter and is attacked, but makes all ARM rolls. 2. Can this impetuous trooper still move 2" to the planter where there is Partial Cover even if the trooper can not benefit from the MODs this gives? https://infinitythewiki.com/Impetuous "Impetuous Troopers cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs." https://infinitythewiki.com/Guts_Roll "2. If this is not possible, the Trooper must move up to 2 inches to gain Total or Partial Cover <absence of qualifier> from all attackers."
We know that the all-at-once rule applies, and we look at all the attacker's position(s), not just the position they attacked from. So there are two possibilities (A) you can move as long as you can improve your cover against any of the attacker's positions; or (B) you can only move if it will improve your cover against all the attacker's positions. Option (B) would allow the attacker to trivially deny their opponent Guts movement by using the very common tactic of peeking out from a corner and then moving back out of sight. Since the attacker started and ended their movement out of LoF of the target, the target already has total cover from one of the attacker's position, and therefore can't improve their cover any further. I'm confident that Guts is intended to work in that scenario, so I conclude that (A) must be correct. I'd imagine that there are some edge cases where it leads to weird results, but I've never seen one come up at the table.
I think you're trying to answer the question that IJW already answered in this thread. I'm asking about a slightly different situation: The trooper that has to make a Guts Roll is doing so in a position where no Enemy has LOF at any point in the order. Be it that the trooper Dodged there or that the trooper was the one peeking and get back out of LOF but failed the FTF.
Oh! You're right, I misunderstood the question. I can't think of scenario where the trooper could have Dodged to its current position and still have to make a Guts roll (if it succeeded its Dodge, it avoided all attacks, right?) So, the scenario is, active trooper A is behind a corner. She moves out to look at B and then back into total cover. B aros a BS Attack. B wins the FTF, and A takes an armor save but survives. Can A fail Guts and move even though she's already out of B's LoF? I would assume no - since A already has total cover, there's no way for her to improve her cover. Am I missing something?
I think that the answer is Impetuous doesn't interact with Guts Rolls. Reasoning: Partial Cover is defined separately from its MODs. First you ascertain whether the model is in Partial Cover (some but not all of its Silhouette is blocked by scenery in contact with the Silhouette) and then you apply the MODs. Impetuous says the trooper can't benefit from Partial Cover MODs. It does not say that the trooper can never be in Partial Cover. The Guts rule says to move to gain Total or Partial Cover. It does not say to move to gain Partial Cover MODs. Basically, Impetuous models can still be in Partial Cover, it just doesn't help them. If it helps, consider a Teuton—let's call him Tim—that was in a Haris but broke Coherency in ARO and then Guts-ed into Partial Cover later in the same reactive turn. He ends up in Partial Cover but can't apply its beneficial MODs. On the last Order of the reactive turn the Haris team leader Dodges so that Tim is back in coherency, and during the next Order Count our man Tim rejoins the Haris and stops being Impetuous. Now Tim is in Partial Cover and gains the beneficial MODS from Partial Cover. It's much simpler to treat the status of being in Partial Cover and its MODs as distinct than to treat them as one and the same. That would imply that Tim fulfilled the requirement to be in Partial Cover during his reactive turn but wasn't actually in Partial Cover somehow, and magically became in Partial Cover by joining a Fireteam and not moving at all. Which is, well, weird.
