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Military Orders 300 points box - and beyond (Questions from a Noob and a Hobby Corner)

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Darvain, Dec 27, 2020.

  1. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Good day.

    My first interest in Infinity in n3 was Japanese Sectorial Army and it's Heavy Infantry, supported by specialists, Tactical Armoured Gear and a couple of bikes. But, it was not to be. Close quarters combat was cool, and the grass was greener back then.

    A year and a half later, after a lot of turmoil, and some way or another I landed myself in the Military Orders of PanOceania. I have a 300 points box in route to me in Moscow. It will arrive in about a month I think...

    And as I sit here, I wonder - what should I do with said box? Rules changed, prices of units changed. As I see and tweak numbers, I can't amount to 300 points. The closest one I can get is 295 with Joan 1.0 and liberal application of Hospitalier Knights and Order Sergeants.

    But, as I see it, "what you see is what you get" most of the time on the table. And so, I should not place my Hospitalier with a sword and claim that it has a spitfire and that one with pistol also has a spitfire. And that one with boarding shotgun? Sorry, it's also a spitfire. No, that one is a heavy machine gun, I promise... I hope, my sarcasm was understandable, as a total noob, I want to play by the rules of the game and do not want to abbuse the system and lack of models accesible to me at the moment.

    Edit: I was possibly bamboozled by my local players or maybe understood them wrong. Ignore this part... Although, with this part ignored, a lot of point from my problem is negated. Sorry about wasting space and posting a stupid thread. My mistake.​

    So, can someone point me to the right and proper list I can assemble from the 300 point box. Also, where to expand? I am kinda lost here...

    The list of models, is, as follows:
    • 1x Joan Of Arc (MULTI Rifle)
    • 1x Black Friar (MULTI Rifle)
    • 1x Crusader (Light Flamethrower, MULTI Rifle)
    • 1x Order Sergeant Hacker (Combi Rifle)
    • 1x Order Sergeant (Combi Rifle)
    • 1x Order Sergeant (Heavy Rocket Launcher)
    • 1x Knight Hospitaller Doctor (Pistol)
    • 1x Knight Hospitaller (DA CC Weapon)
    • 1x Knight Hospitaller (Heavy Machine Gun)
    • 1x Knight Hospitaller (Boarding Shotgun)
    • 1x Auxbot
    Edit: with the new information and clarification from the post below... I think, my new question will be - okay, what is the list of this box and how do I expand from it beyond the box? I heard that the thing called Support Pack is always good, the one with the doctor and engineer. Beyond that... I am still in the dark.
    My joy is hobby aspect mainly. Heavy Infantry and Tactical Armoured Gear by the merit of looks alone appeal to me much more than competitive edge on the table. But, I do not enjoy being a punching bag either. So, any advice is a good advice.

    Edit: Do not be afraid to call me stupid because I just do not know any better - even in questions.

    Thanks in advance, please, help a horribly lost man in his quest to understand the PanOceania's Military Orders.

    Edit2: fixed some grammar.
     
    #1 Darvain, Dec 27, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The rules literally, explicitly, allow proxying.

    I wrote an angry reply, then deleted it after reminding myself that you're a new player and may just not know better. So, if you're starting in Infinity: you'll learn that proxying is a basic part of the game, completely normal, and not even remotely against the rules or abusing the system.

    Play however you like, of course. Just be aware that your opponents will all be using proxies, and that you'll be at a disadvantage if you choose to limit the unit profiles available to you.
     
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  3. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Well...damn. Now I feel stupid. Sorry about that. I was possibly bamboozled by my own local players or maybe trolled.

    One of them told me that the game is a lot about markers and proxy models on the table, to represent states (markers) and models of a models (dismounted models of a bikers, pilots of Tactical Armoured Gears) and the like - but you must be exact and precise with your load outs of said model, as to avoid confusion and the moments like "what is that dude is"? Maybe I understood him wrong? As you said it, I am extremely new. I red the lore, checked the models on the site and talked to the players twice. And picked the box.

    I WILL rectify the rules blankness. Sorry. And thank you for your patience.

    Edit: edited the upper post as to avoid more confusion in the future.
     
    #3 Darvain, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Lol, I'm glad I deleted the angry post :-) Sorry I was still snarkier than I ought to have been. Here is the polite answer I should have given:

    The relevant rule is on page 4 of the ITS season 12 rules under "Proxies" and "Converted figures." You can use any Corvus Belli model as a proxy as long as it's on the correct size base for the model it represents. You can also use any conversion as long as it's mostly CB parts. You can't use other companies' minis (although not all Tournament Organizers will enforce that, for example we have a local player who uses Xenomorphs from Alien for some of his Combined Army units, which is awesome).

    Technically the ITS rules only apply to tournaments, but most of us play our casual games according to tournament rules, and anyway, outside of tournaments there are no restrictions anyway. You could play with salt shakers if you wanted.

    There are a lot of profiles that don't have models at all, but are still used frequently. Over in Haqqislam, for example, we have Yara Haddad who doesn't have a model, or even any other model that looks remotely like her. We can only play her by proxying her. That's just one example of many.

    In the long run, your opponents might get a little annoyed if your models look really far off. For example, if you have a unit with a scary weapon like a Missile Launcher, it's good form to use a proxy that also has some form of rocket launcher as a visual reminder to the opponent that the weapon is gonna blow them up. And if you have a big Heavy Infantry with a ton of armor, you should probably use an armored model to represent that. But when you're new and don't have a lot of models, your opponents shouldn't be dicks about it. And even in the long run, that Hospitaller with a sword can represent basically any Hospitaller. Remember, all the Hospitaller profiles have guns, so if you could only use that model to represent a profile who only had a sword, the model wouldn't actually be playable.

    There's a lot of "remind me what that guy has?" in Infinity. Also a lot of "I move here." "If you do, this Missile Launcher sees you. Are you sure?" "Oh right I forgot about that, I'll move here instead." Courtesy and sportsmanship help your opponent remember what weapons and units they're facing, much more so than the models themselves. Or, as a local player more succinctly put it, "nobody looks at your models" :-)

    Hope that helps, and sorry again for snapping at you.
     
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  5. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Gotcha on the miniatures and proxies. So basically, use the common sense more and do not sweat the small stuff.
    • If you have the big guy, use him to represent another big guy. I
    • If you have a little guy, use him to represent another little guy.
    • If you have a heavy weapon, represent it by at least some heavy weapon or indicate that weapon on a model (conversions are best, which is good to know).
    So I can use (to use the same Hospitaller with a sword analogy) the sword-only miniature, to represent any profile at all - but, the best ones would be not heavy weapon ones, and, at the same time, if I want to use him as a rocket-launcher heavy weapons piece, if I get my mitts on some spare tube-like object, it's good to throw in on the base (for example, to represent "spent" missile launcher, and that the guy was just "done with this thing" and now will proceed to stabbing range to personally introduce you to his blade).

    All is good, I am an inexperienced noob, I will try and get better with this kind of stuff. Thank you again for the answer about looks of the model and proxies.

    Edit: fixed some grammar.
     
    #5 Darvain, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Looks like you are getting the advice you needed.

    In terms of "what next" you are 100% correct that you will want the Support Pack, they are always good to pick up.

    Military Orders uses remotes less than other PanOceania sectorials, but you will still want at least one box of DroneBots Remotes (to make a Fugazi and a Pathfinder) and possibly a second (for another Pathfinder and a Sierra). You will also want a MuleBots box, for a Minesweeper and an EVO Hacker (and you get one of each in the box so it's perfect).

    Another box of Order Sergeants won't go amiss, some might suggest the old Military Orders starter, but I find them too dated to tolerate and I'd say just go with another of the set you've already got. That will let you do some mixing and matching if you haven't already assembled everything anyway.

    In N4 the Montesa Knight and Montesa Tikbalang are both very strong choices, and you may well want both. The Tikbalang is getting hard to pick up (it's been Out of Production for a little while now) but you could buy the new "Blue Wolf" from Yu Jing to proxy it very well (with an appropriate paint job) if you can't get ahold of one. The Montesa on motorcycle you will have to convert, I made mine from a Knight and an old Japanese motorcycle but there are lots of options. Just don't be afraid to do conversion work on metal models, it's easier than you'd think.

    Good luck, and welcome to the Hyperpower.
     
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  7. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    You mean, another 300 points box? So, more Hospitaliers, more Crusaders Bretheren, more Order Sergeants. Second Black Frair. They will be over the availability, is that okay? If proxy is allowed within reason, should I drop another 1/3 of my monthly income onto the troops I will not be able to use?

    I will check my local game store, as I am in Russia, we can have some pretty dated stuff lying here (maybe). Also, why not a Seraph? It has much better close quarters capabilities and complements the knightly theme with Martial Arts.

    That, I have to admit, is a phrase that excites me greatly, as I love the hobby aspect of the game as much if not more than being repeatedly handed my ass on the table. Working with metal though on this scale will be a challenge.

    As to the rest - got it. So, slowly expand my range of useful tools to suit my game-by-game needs.

    The only shame is that Moterised Montesa is allowance 1. My heart is bleeding for not being able to field a lance of motorised knights.
     
    #7 Darvain, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    There is a 4 mini box with just the Order Sergeants.You certainly don't want more of anything else.

    You want the Montesa Tikbalang over the Seraph, because it's better at killing other TAGs and heavy armour than the Seraph. Climbing+ is also a LOT better than Super-jump in N4. MO doesn't have the tools to get units into CC, so don't build strategies around using it.

    You DO want a Santiago Knight, as the Hacker is super useful to add to your Hospitalier Fireteams, but they are basically impossible to get ahold of now. But this is a good place to pick up any blister pack of a single Knight (preferably one with a combi rifle) and paint it with the red and black of a Santiago as a proxy.

    There is a Military Orders "re-launch" coming in 2021, so that may help with some of this, just not right now.
     
    #8 AdmiralJCJF, Dec 28, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  9. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Just a single one? I saw that the Santiago Hacker (Killer Hacking Devise I think I saw on the boards?) is a good piece of kit to add to any army basically. Of course, build to preference, I mean, if I want more than one, I can have up to three in an army.

    I will hold some of my purchases then, but I still want a solid core to paint and to convert sometimes in the near-ish future. Thanks for the information.

    Also, I want to ask a controversial question. I know that no matter what wargame or country, there is a "market" for second-hand armies. Armies and miniatures of official producer, but from people, who do not want them one way or another.

    My question is this. What the polite stance on this kind of miniatures in the community here at large? I know that stance in Russia, as our currency to $ and euro are really weak and a 300 pts box costed me 1/3 of my monthly income. Buying second-hand miniatures is considered preferable, as it is almost always is cheaper. But, in this way, the buyer do not support the producer directly. As no money goes back into Corvus Belli's hands.

    I never done this kind of things before. So, I would not know.
     
  10. infyrana

    infyrana Well-Known Member

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    I didn't see it mentioned, there are the Spec Ops models for each faction. The PanO one I believe is called "Indigo Spec-Ops", part of their description on one of the other spec ops models is quoted as follows: "Infinity Spec-Ops have no troop profile in the Army Lists, however they are the perfect proxies to use in official Infinity tournaments." - so quite obvious there's a model out there people can use to represent anything they don't have a model for already. You could also check out the PanO models from Dire Fores mission pack 1, neither are holding weaponry so can proxy for any LI/MI troop weapon profiles easy enough, but none of the above are armoured for a good HI representation.

    I believe with proxy'ing, it's mostly said above, but I think you just need to play by common sense (as in any game) and fit in with whatever gaming group you intend to play with (ie their rules). Write down the proxies you're using in any given game and make them clear at the start, in the middle and whenever asked etc - just don't use it to abuse the game by misleading your opponent at any point.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with buying genuine CB Infinity models second hand from people getting out of the hobby or switching factions etc, how else do you think they can finance their next purchases? :D Afterall, the models were originally bought from someone who paid for them from CB at some point. Some newer players prefer the older models and second hand is the only way to source those that went out of print. But if you're talking about 'copies of CB models that are being sold' (ie fakes), then I would avoid it.
     
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  11. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    I will need to check this spec ops troops. Thank you for the info.

    Writing down the proxies is a great idea, thank you. I can number code the bases on the base itself. And just write down - Hospitaller 3 - Multi-rifle, pistol, DA CCW (doctor) on a piece of paper. This will be a great help - and no way to mistake it if it's already written.

    Oh no no no I am talking about genuine Corvis Belli Infinity models (some even still in blisters and boxes unopened). Some people as you mentioned, are switching armies all the time or just getting away from the hobby altogether. Mostly it's unpainted unassembled metal.
     
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  12. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Yeah, people buy second hand all the time.

    No problem there at all!

    To supplement what you have in the 300pts box set you probably only need one Santiago Killer Hacker. You might also want to convert a Drop Trooper Santiago (they are excellent, especially if you build a list around them). But at some point we are going beyond "what should I add to get started?"
     
  13. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Well with Montesa Motorised and Montesa Tikbalang, and Santiago, we are already in the range of "and now we need a tool for every ocasion". Also, remotes are the only choice with EVO hacking in Military Orders as I see it, so, add them to the mix. Mulebots and whatnot.

    Tikbalang is out of my grasp (they are out even in Russia) as I see it now, but I have a Seraph in reach.
     
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  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I would get a Seraph, put it on a 40mm base and use it as a Montesa Tikbalang.

    Maybe minus the wings?
     
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  15. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Or Squalo. They have similar structure to Tikbalang, minus CCW. I think I can find some sword to help make it more like Tikbalang.
     
  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The Tikbalang doesn't actually have good CC, so the sword on the original model doesn't make much sense. Of course put one on if the Rule of Cool calls for it, but in terms of representing a Tik, something with no sword would actually work better :-)

    Personally I would use a Blue Wolf or Gecko and do a conversion to give it an HMG. The Seraph or Squalo will also work but will look a little oversized. If I were using an oversized model, I'd probably go with a Cutter just because the new one looks so great.

    Also, MO is supposedly getting an S5 Sepulchre Knight at some point, which might work well as a conversion into an S6 knight TAG.

    One of the pleasures of Infinity is making these sorts of decisions as you prefer to personalize your army! There are no wrong options.
     
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  17. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Yes I checked the Blue Wolf and it looks serviceable. It will require some heavy converting though, but no biggie. Gecko I like much more as a stand-in. Honestly, it's such a shame though. It's "of Montesa' and it does not have good CC or Martial Arts.

    So, I will go about searching for a model, yeah. Thanks for the advice!

    Also, happy new year everybody!
     
    #17 Darvain, Jan 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  18. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    As they said already, just proxy what you need. As long as it is clear for your opponent there is no problem at all.

    Just in case it helps, this is an example list with the miniatures of that box:

    300 pts MO
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    BLACK FRIAR (Discover [+3], Albedo, Biometric Visor) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    CRUSADER MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    GUARD SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / CC Weapon, Assault Pistol. (1.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon. (0 | 4)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    TRINITARIAN (Minelayer, Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 28)
    JOAN OF ARC (Lieutenant) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (1 | 50)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)

    5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Similar to that you have many options just adjusting which weapons the Hospitallers will be using. Same for Joan since she has different versions. The Order Sergeants you can also use them in different ways,and they can also be Trinitarinas, etc.

    This list has a fireteam of 4 Hospitallers + Joan. But you can also try Joan to go alone, then put 2 hospitallers + 1 Order Sergeant in a Haris, while the remaining 2 Hospitallers + 1 Order Sergeant form a Core Fireteam (there are 2 emtpy slots on that fireteam, but that's ok). Just try to play with the Infinity Army and you will find a lot of combinations.

    Something like this:

    1 Haris + 1 Core
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    JOAN OF ARC (Lieutenant) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (1 | 50)
    BLACK FRIAR (Discover [+3], Albedo, Biometric Visor) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    CRUSADER MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    TRINITARIAN (Minelayer, Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 28)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
    ORDER SERGEANT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / CC Weapon, Assault Pistol. (1.5 | 15)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  19. Darvain

    Darvain Active Member

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    Thank you. I was playing with the army builder yeah. And it seems like Orders have it tough in the department "get all the tools into the list".

    Try as I might, I can not bring EVO Hacker, Hacker, Doctor, Engineer and some punch that I can be comfortable looking at. If I place so many support pieces into the list, there is no stopping power. If I do not place them, there is plenty of power, no specialists and no hacking/engineering/counterhacking.

    I know. I need to play, adjust, play again. See, what will be better to drop, to keep. But now I am in this wierd limbo, when I try to place a TAG into the list, and after I place all the support, poof - 155/300 of the points are gone.
    And I am like... Eh? How am I supposed to place a semi-decent link in there and also have enough points for a Black Friar at least?

    Is this even servicable?
    I have no idea, how to post lists here. :(

    Zw9taWxpdGFyeS1vcmRlcnMZTWlsaXRhcnkgT3JkZXJzIFRpa2JhbGFuZ4EsAQEMAQ8BAQACJQEBAAMmAQIABBgBBQAFGwECAAYhAQMABwYBAwAIBgEEAAkGAQgACgYBBwALJQEBAAwTAQEA
     
    #19 Darvain, Jan 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  20. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    To give your local player the benefit of the doubt, he may have been talking about being precise on what profile the model is. If you took a model as the spitfire profile, that specific model needs to remain the spitfire profile throughout the rest of the game.

    Sometimes when people proxy, what profile a model is can sometimes get.... muddy over the course of a game. And that’s not to say that they are cheating. If you have two models and one has a big sword and the other has a pistol. It’s easy to forget which one is the spitfire and which one is the doctor.

    For example, in my USARF list, I usually have three grunt line infantry and they all have rifles. One of them is the Lt. Even though that is private information, I long ago decided that the female model will ALWAYS be my Lt. so I don’t forget which is which throughout the game.

    So, that MIGHT have been what the local guy was saying. Not a “you have to be WYSIWYG” but a “You have to stay the same thing all game.”
     
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