Am I missing something here or is this skill particularly bad on snipers with MSV? Lunah can benefit by changing a -9 to a -3 by shooting at someone with Mimetism -6, in Cover, and through Smoke. This sounds decent until you consider that Triangulated Fire is an Entire Order skill. Teucer can benefit at most changing a -6 to a -3 by shooting his Feuerbach at 0-8" range at someone in Cover. Ignoring pistols, of course, as both have regular pistols and little incentive to use them at range. This would be less terrible for them if the skill was a Short Skill, but as it is; wouldn't it make a lot more sense if they either didn't have this skill or had a skill that actually mattered? (As a small aside, Lunah used to be a tech option to handle the super-strong snipers like Kamau in a Fireteam Core, but the specific setup is no longer possible)
Holy shit, finally someone is saying this. It's been batshit insane to me how many people have been simping for Lunah since N4 and actually suggested 2 shots on 9's with Lunah is anything else but a terrible option.
Honestly, I'd have left MMLX and Triangulated Fire as two separate skills, but if I was going to combine them it'd be as Triangulated Fire at +6 to Hit, -1B on everything. Trading 1B for +6 MOD and a Short Skill is almost universally useful: it'd become "if you don't want to Move then it's almost always better to Triangulated Fire". Sensor Bots would be B2 Combis or B1 FO.
The Long skill triangulated fire can be mitigated by Lunah by moving into position in camo, or even just by moving into position against non MSV targets in smoke. Triangulated has always been a skill of situational use, I'm kinda surprised it wasn't the one that went - not to say you can't find uses for it. You can.
There's situational and so niche as to be meaningless: you need to be on -6 after Mods to get benefit, that's basically impossible for Teucer and difficult for Lunah. Realistically for Lunah it's a way to BS Attack through Smoke with only a -3 penalty (-3 Cover, -6 through Smoke, +3 Range). It's why I think I prefer a +6 attribute, -1B. It ends up useful in a wider range of circumstances.
Yeah fair enough, basically agree though I think having Lunah shoot through smoke isn't that difficult in say ISS. A fairly simple, broadly applicable skill like the +6BS - 1 Burst might be better for sure (though maybe not for Pi-Well ;) ). Maybe even +6 BS for halved burst.
So - as it is - Triangulated Fire is pretty much mostly useful for troops like Pi-well. Long Range, through a Low / Poor Vis Zone or vs something with Vis Mods you can get down to -12 Mods easily: particularly on Forward Observer with no positive range and a relatively short -3 band. It also makes Assisted Fire less of a necessity for these sorts of troopers (and works nicely with the +WIP REM-Driver - DAM14 B2 11s Stun isn't an awful opening salvo to suppress an ARO). It's why my first preference would have been to keep Triangulated Fire and MMLX distinct: perhaps 'Meticulous Aim' as a re-named MMLX. An interesting adjustment would have been to simply make "Aimed Shot" a common skill for +6 MOD at B1 available to any weapon with a native burst >1. Although, potentially that would have simply further buffed Marker States.
Lunah, other than this, isn't terrible. She is a solution to McMurrough and his ilk and she functions well as a basic sniper. That's not to say she's super well optimised and she's far from filling the vacant role of her home sectorial's powerhouse. She's just plain alright. 7 out of 10 profile - always worth considering but not always worth using. Having her shoot through smoke isn't a problem. Barely an inconvenience. Using smoke while shooting through smoke and not having it be a wasted effort, now that's the issue because Triangulated Fire takes you to a -3 MOD, you're going to be shooting fairly poorly even if you're ignoring other MODs. As cool as Triangulated Fire is, the ability to shoot into melee is what made it worth ever considering in N3 and that is now gone.
I'd love that aimed shot as a trait on precision weapons like Sniper rifles at least. Just from rule of cool perspective if nothing else.
I think Lunah’s role is basically to have a sniper that reliably shoots at no more than a -3 for any target anywhere on the board, because that last rangeband means she can sit in the back corner of your DZ and—given a fire lane—reliably address anything not in a marker state in the opposite corner of the table or closer. Her effective performance floor is higher than, say, a Guilang sniper. Teucer would on the other hand be better off with just Marksmanship, unless CB gave him TF for free as a fringe case tool. Having a main gun with no -6 rangeband and MSV2 ought to render TF a zero cost Skill.
Atalanta has Marksmanship and having two named snipers that are really similar in the same army is... I dunno... The theory on Lunah is decent and all, but -3 MOD does require you to setup first and it's really order in-efficient considering her base BS isn't super-human, especially if you consider what sort of targets your opponent will set up peeking out at you - they'll likely be shooting back at similar BS and burst as you or would be dodging at higher effective PH. If boards were larger so that you could actually find somewhere to shoot in the upper reaches of a sniper rifle's rangeband (like picking off targets at 70" through smoke) it'd be completely different. Equally, if she had a high burst weapon like a Viral Marksman Rifle with a shorter rangeband, she could also leverage Triangulated Fire as an advantage. It's still going to be order inefficient because relocating is really punishing
You’re not at all wrong, my point was mainly that Lunah’s advantage isn’t really about minmaxing good attack opportunities into amazing ones, but about making it that much harder for your opponent to protect pieces with anything other than total cover. They could always give Teucer (Speculative Attack) on his main gun for a unique take on a sniper, representing semi-guided smart munitions without actually assigning Guided—and its template effect—to a K1 sniper rifle or feuerbach.
Ever seen the US Army testing/instructional video titled roughly "concealed does not equal protected" or some such? It's basically munitions testing by shooting at a semi-realistically built listening post. Basically, pistols shoot through walls and filing cabinets, and assault rifles shoot through the entire building, all interior, everyone inside, through the brick wall on the other side and stops deep in a sand wall on the other side. What you suggest is essentially what I'd imagine modern sniping is at the moment (where they literally dictate to the sniper using satellite telemetry etc how to shoot). It's not unreasonable when you consider what Emily can do with a blast template. Couple this with the fact that the weapons they use could probably fire through a significant number of walls found on a typical table.. Teucer with a 'bach would be the extreme end, of course, but a Zhanying with Breaker Combi is more reasonable indeed. Another idea is, imagine if each unit with this ability provided a triangulation point. What if each unit with Triangulated Fire provides a +3 BS MOD to targets in LOF to other units with Triangulated Fire? It's not quite as ridiculous as it sounds; you do need those supporting units to gain LOF without going null or scaring the target off...
Personally, when I first checked the game out I thought that MSV ought to permit troopers to shoot through walls at heat signatures, etc. because it's thematic, and the fact that the main smart guns are guided missile bots and a Nox plasma sniper—yes, I know most weapons are supposedly semi-smart in the fluff, but Ariadna's weapons aren't really that indicative of that disparity—is a teensy bit of a letdown. That said, I think it'd be cool to be able to Possess REMs and RemPres Infantry models, but apparently N4 playtesting indicated against that. And I'd like to see piloted TAGs be more resistant to Possession (or...something?) to counter the inability to fix them with command tokens, but I shan't hold my breath. :p
here i was hoping CB would have noticed the SP posts and shout box comments about this back in November and adjusted Teucer by now....
From a quick scan of the profiles, I think Teucer shouldn't have existed in the first place with Atalanta in the same role. With the fact he does exist, however, I think it would distinguish him more from Atalanta if he got a nice fat bonus to BS Attack Damage instead of more +to-hit things- really leverage the K1 Sniper and multi-wound Feurbach to make the hits he lands hurt, even against heavily-armoured targets. There's enough tanky options with no or few MODs, like the Gamma, Daiyokai and most TAGs, that it's a niche worth filling. As for Triangulated Fire? Shouldn't be on snipers in the first place, way more useful on plain Rifles for getting moderate-burst attacks against distant targets without crippling modifiers.
I would like Teucer with BS Attack +1Burst without the useless (for him) triang Fire and without give him the same skill of Atalanta (markmanship). With the cost adjust of course. So Atalanta for reactive turn and Teucer for active turn.
giving him BS (continuous damage) instead of +1B would be more interesting and fit more with his lore. as much as i enjoy it, full auto feurebachs and general +1B are really are starting to feel overdone
Mostly that's Karhus on a MSV1 + Mimmetism platform that's linkable and benefits from movement skills. Pick 3 and it's extremely solid but all four is a bit of a WTF. Teucer as a B3 Feurbach would be fine (lacking linkable, Mimmetism and movement skills but gaining resilience). Emphasising the split between active anti-Armour vs swing mostly anti-Pers would have been awesome. Aside: Atlanta really does show that neurocinetics doesn't need to exist.
