Well i'm not very pissed off lol. More irked. Honestly I haven't been able to play yet. But i'd like to make a force and paint what I need to for WB while I can and I'm finding it incredibly hard to make anything I like. As of now, I find the Shang Ji team to be garbage and the Zhanshi to be mediocre at best. True, they may change them to be good for N4. But how many times have we been disappointed? How many times have we thought they were going to do something a certain way and they didn't or went the opposite direction? So far the stars of the WB, to me, are the Hundun and Tian Gou. Then Ye Mao. All of which are as good or better in Vanilla. I would love the Jujak if they were't bogged down by need to take one Shang Ji. I'm just not happy I need to wait until August for them to possibly, be good. I'll stay positive though. Vanilla is in better shape than it has been in years.
If it makes you feel any better I believe the HRL TacAw Shang Ji is a reasonable duo partner for Jing under the current set.
Shang ji tax on the jujaks, and the AVA 4 on zhansi really work against going heavy on links. My problem right now with WB is that if i don't pick Ye Maos all the other good stuff i like is unlinked and on vanilla. I find myself doing IA type list with a haris and a 3 man core + camos everywhere. Really i wish the Shang Ji souldn't be on WB (fluff wise it don't make any sense to).
I keep finding the fireteams are too restrictive and end up making a similar and better list in Vanilla. I may experiment with 3-man core, haris and duos.
I tried and failed to make some good lists with some duos instead of full links. there's certainly good Duos but if you make more than 1 or two, the rest of the force suffers. Again, the ones that can do the Duo or wildcard into them are just expensive. The cheapest Jujak with the cheapest wildcard (Tian Gou KHD) is still 56pts. Below is the best i could come up with. The White Banner Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 1 JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, AP+DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) GROUP 2 4 JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) HÙNDÙN (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 26) LÓNG YÁ 2 Panzerfaust, Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (0 | 20) 3 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
I feel like some sort of Jujak duo might be worth experimenting with, spearheaded by the spitfire. They can run up to the midfield quickly, clear stuff out with their flamethrowers and settle into suppression. Sure, no mods, but BS13, 2 wounds and courage means they'll hold their ground pretty well. Or you could have one slingshot a Tian Gou jammer into an annoying position.
after a month of testing on TTS Duos I've liked Shaolin+Jing Qo duo for Armory - she gets to the door in one order and start knocking in very effectively, at the same time delivering the monk closer to the enemy. Blue Wolf duos with characters have been fun - Adil helped me to discover a whole lot of TOFOOS one game and Lei Gong delivered to Nisses that cant see him also was effective. Duos are very efficient for Biotechvore and I'd say WB ones are pretty cool - if you have no ideas just put a Tiang Gou in a core, a haris and a duo Ye Mao haris these guys are the greatest hits collection of linkable MI traits but still have the same issues that plague bolts and wildcats, ie, you want to scream SUBOPTIMAL at them and go play OSS like the proper powergamer ML+FO+Tiang Gou KHD turned out ok dont forget to abuse superjump Cores The optimal one, as expected, is simple Qing Gao+zhanshi+tiang gou. 2w hmg in a dork team, it is simple, and always works. As I've expected, taking Qing Gao LT with Lei Gong CoC backup was worth it - not a single game passed without me using both LT orders to kill something to dead state or take one last shot and reform the core. I've enjoyed the expensive HI-ish core here way more than in Invincibles - Shang Ji HRL, Qing Gao, Jujak LT, Lei Gong SMR, Tiang Gou Jammer; all thanks to the Jammer preventing close approaches and intuitive attacking markers on rooftops. The catch is that you cant reform it after HRL goes. Also I think Shang Ji HRL is one of my very favorite profiles - it is a very scary gun both for active and reactive turn that forces opponent to waste a lot of orders to scatter his fireteam if your dude is still alive. Hope they are going to release the model soon! Tip: If you run both Core and a Haris, run them in one group, take two different Tian Gous (Jammer and KHD) and distribute them between teams depending on deployment, objectives and threats
Haven´t had the chance to rty the HRL but love it on paper. Good to hear it is doing good on the table too. As for the Link, if you keep a couple Zanshi around and drop the Jujak, you can reform as a Zanshi Core to still boost that HMG. Heck, if you are not going to expose him, make the Jujak LT a Zanshi LT and that is a fully valid Zanshi Core, right?
I don't get the Druze reference at all. I modified the one above a little by making Haris and Core "Duos" The White Banner Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 1 1 Duo JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, AP+DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) Haris Duo YĚ MĀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) Core Duo ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) GROUP 2 4 Duo JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) HÙNDÙN (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 26) LÓNG YÁ 2 Panzerfaust, Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (0 | 20) 2.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Basically the ability to heavily customize a fireteam while also having a wealth of useful substitutes for when one member bites the dust.
I think the WB take reminds me a bit more of the VIRD/Acon style though. Pile of line troops with whatever beefier units are needed in the link.
Varuna is a good comparison, yes, and so is Foreign Company in my opinion. Ye Mao is equivalent of Kaplan, Zhanshi has a minor equivalence with Corporate Securitate fireteam, Bolts that weird Jujak-Shanger amalgamation, and Kriza with Blue Wolf. Laxme, Hannibal, Valkyrie, and Massacre are almost but not quite the Wildcard equivalents of Adil, Jing, Qiang and Lei while Wild Bill and Liang shares some similarities due to the more narrow fireteam possibilities. This is in the roughest terms possible, of course, and only really looking at fireteams. When I think Druze I don't think customizible fireteams, I think "speculative fire and where's the other half of the sectorial?" At some point I'd like to try the Blue Dog Duo in White Banner, but that's not any time soon as the current round of TTS tournaments I'm testing vanilla. I'm hoping it performs similar to Su-Jian where you only duo to gain some order efficiency - you kind of need to get to 50+ point units with SWC weapons to get true value out of a Duo I think. Even Shanger+Hulang duo is hard to get value out of
Sorry to rez this thread months later - but looking at Shang Ji in the Army Builder now, it looks like Fireteam: Core was awkwardly appended to the White Banner version of the unit (it appears in a more logical order along with Duo and Haris in the Invincible Army version of the unit. Two questions about that: 1) Does that mean the original question that kicked off this list has a different answer now (e.g. Shang Ji is Core and so could form a fireteam with both a Jujak and a few Zhanshi). The White Banner Sectorial document also shows Core, Duo, and Haris for the Shang Ji now. 2) Considering that Shang Ji is ALSO listed as a Wildcard... is there a functional difference to it being a Wildcard if it is also available in all three fireteam types that White Banner is able to run? What fireteams would the Shang Ji be able to join in the sectorial that it can not already join on the basis of having Core, Duo, and Haris?
First up is that you're replying to a post when the rules for Fireteams were very different. Back then Shang-Ji didn't have Haris skill except on specific profiles, but they could form a Core. 1.) No. While the rules have changed slightly, in this regard they have not changed. 2.) Yes, there is a functional difference because Jujak can't form a Core without joining a Shang-Ji Core and Jujak can't join a Core of Zhanshi. Also, a pure Shang-Ji Fireteam requires the corresponding Duo, Haris and Core allowance in the Sectorial Army List, something Wildcard does not allow you to get around.
Okay I see - I think I was misunderstanding fireteams overall via the wording of the rules Annex - there are a lot of strange wordings in there and odd choices... I read the following line "A Fireteam must be composed of Troopers belonging to the same Unit, or of those that the Sectorial Army List specifies are able to do so." with the (mis)understanding that if the Sectorial Army List said a figure was in "Core" it meant that any combination of figures with the Core fireteam trait could be in a Core team even if they were not in the same Unit (e.g. it's specified in the Sectorial Army list). The annex never actually defines Wildcard and there was a point in the Army Builder where (perhaps due to errors that eventually got fixed) it looked like certain figures were not listed with a given fireteam in their profile, yet that fireteam appeared next to their name in the Sectorial Army List - this made me think the list meant that any figure listed with a given fireteam name could simply join that type of fireteam (even if they couldn't be the figure to 'form' it). So let me get this straight then - the ONLY exception to a fireteam (let's say a fireteam Core) being completely homogenous (e.g. all the same unit/troop type) is either a Wildcard trooper joining that fireteam or a Special Fireteam rule? So the following would be true for White Banner, for example: - A Jujak can join a fireteam Duo formed by a Shang Ji (because of the Jujak's Special Fireteam Rule). Likewise a Shang Ji can join a Duo formed by a Jujak (but in this case it's not simply the reciprocal of the above, but rather because the Shang Ji is a wildcard). Shang Ji can Duo with Shang Ji and Jujak can Duo with Jujak - but a Shang Ji and Jujak cannot form a Duo together (because they are from different units) except because it is allowed by the above technicalities of Special Fireteam and Wildcard respectively. - A Shang Ji can create a Core with other Shang Ji (up to 5) OR join a Core of several Zhanshi as a Wildcard. Can you have any number of Wildcards? For example - could three Shang Ji technically join a Core of 2 Zhanshi (as long as they classify themselves as wildcards). If the two Zhanshi died at some point in a way that otherwise didn't cancel the fireteam (e.g. one of the Shang Ji was currently marked as the Leader) would the Fireteam still stand as a "Zhanshi Core" even without any Zhanshi left in it?
Annex has this about Wildcards: IMPORTANT When creating a Fireteam that includes Wildcard Troopers, the player must include at least one Trooper from the Units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a Trooper that counts as a member of one of those Units. That's about it for Wildcards other than the Wildcard's own text about replacing any member of a fireteam. I personally feel as if that should be sufficient, even if it is very barebones. And yes, only exception to homogeneous fireteams is Wildcard and Special compositions. Keeping in mind, of course, that some troops counts as another trooper such as Liang Kai counting as a Shaolin in White Banner and some troops have a very narrowly defined "wildcard" such as a Varuna Machinist's "be part of .. fireteam .. of Kamau" You can have any number of Wildcards as long as you don't have a specific restriction on them. You can only have one Tian Gou per Fireteam in White Banner, but any number of Shang-Ji, so the following is an allowed Fireteam (of the type regular Zhanshi Core): Zhanshi + Tian Gou + Shang-Ji + Shang-Ji + Shang-Ji Remember that Fireteam restrictions are for forming them. Losing integrity does not take those restrictions into account.
As an Ariadna player getting into Yu Jing recently. I have found the best way to go about making list for White Banner is the same way I go about making list for Caledonia. An aggressive core with a single hit piece much like the Grey Rifle/Volunteer Core. Letting my Daofei and Ye Mao be my "Cameronians" and take things out, while Guilangs complete objectives. The Long Yas are my "Catarans" for ARO duty. Wanted yalls thoughts on the matter. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 6 1 ZHANSHI (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) TIAN GǑU 1st Section (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) YĚ MĀO AP Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) GROUP 2 7 DÀOFĚI Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 55) GŬILÁNG (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26) LÓNG YÁ (Minelayer) Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17) LÓNG YÁ (Minelayer) Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17) PANGGULING (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
I've got very little experience with split groups like that, but I really like that list! One question - why the Pangguling over Chaiyi (the flash pulse bots)?
I'd assume you'd park them within ZoC of the Long Ya to have refills for their various disposable weapons. You could also trundle one into the midfield to hold terrain in a quadrant control mission and/or to offer refills of mines and d-charges to the camo midfielders. Given how easily flash pulse bots can get splashed off the table, if you don't intend to leave them out as ARO speed bumps then putting the points into something that can be a cheap Order and also deactivate mines/refill disposables isn't a bad idea.
