Unmasking (ITS S12)

This is a great point! Firing Guided Missiles at a model that dodges on 12s even when it can't draw LoF to the attacker, only takes a single save per hit, and still has a decent chance to pass their armor (=BTS) is a good way of frustrating your opponent! Just keep in mind that being targeted makes it harder for the Namurr to win traditional f2f gunfights...

May I be so bold as to ask you to consider if you'd be willing to swap the Djanbazan HMG for Zhayedan one? I'm not an experienced Vanilla Haqq player, but Nomads do have access to both White Noise and Albedo, and two of your three strong gunfighters having MSV makes you rather vulnerable to them... Even against models with Mimetism the Zhayedan's Marskmanship is equal to MSV L1 (provided that they benefit from cover), and against models with no visual mods (or even better, Albedo or White Noise) the Zhayedan is actually far superior! He even has shock on his gun...

 

Out of curiosity I ran the numbers. The guided attack is 39% to wound the Namurr, which is pretty good. Compare for example the Mukhtar which takes 1+ wounds 75% of the time, and two wounds 57% of the time. Interesting choice. The Namurr is otherwise kind of overpriced, so I'm curious whether he ends up being worth it in this case.

If your opponent hides his Interventor, it'll take the Fiday a lot more then two orders to get at her unless you're willing to risk deploying in the DZ. Opponent could also keep the Interventor as his reserve and just avoid the Fiday. (Oh how I miss N3 Saladin!) As a second lt killer, you might consider the Barid KHD. Admittedly he is not as good in Vanilla since the pitcher doesn't get link bonuses. Nonetheless, if you can put a repeater next to the Interventor, Trinity(-3) is 42% to take her out despite her BTS 9. That's if she resets - if she tries to hack back, your odds are even better.

 

I agree with your assessment, though I'd rather call the Namurr "well prepared" than "over costed"! ;) I personally think he (or she) is a solid anti TAG piece at the end of the day...

 

Here's a thought and observation.

Move one regular order trooper from group 1 to group 2. Ensure you have a striking or other important piece in both groups. This will do a few things.

You have Saladin and you should capitalize on him.

If you do the above you have 8 regular orders/1 irregular order in group 1, and 3 regular/3 irregular orders in group 2. (Barring more extensive reorganization)

Saladin can move a model from one group to another at the beginning of each of your turns. So if they are going second and strip 2 orders away from a group, you can move a model to shore up that order count. If you see an opening during deployment you can shift again to add an order to whatever group has an opening but just not 'quite' enough orders to get there. Imagine, if you will, suddenly moving the Fiday from group 2 to group 1 and then having 7 or 8 or 9 orders to do a thing instead of maybe only a couple. Or moving Saladin from group 1 to group 2 and that whatever piece now has 5 orders to get a thing done.

Hope this helps.

 

I have to say, I disagree with both points, but I don't wan't to argue - the main thing is that you have found the way you want to play Vanilla Haqq! I'm first to admit that I haven't played a single game with Vanilla in N4, but I have plenty of experience with RTF, where both of the units mentioned (as well as the Mukhtar you seem to scale them against) can be found.

I'll write down my thoughts on the matter in my blog posts though, all the best on your journey with Vanilla Haqq!

 

It is weird, and I'm not a huge fan of it either, but to be fair that table was absolutely terrible. Your dislike of the mission may come partly from the table.

For context: Tofu and I played a practice game on that table, SAA vs. Ariadna. It was ridiculous. My side had exclusive access to two of the three consoles, which were impossible to cover with any decent AROs from the other side. Basically my whole side was inside a building so I could do whatever I wanted in there. My HVTs were invulnerable. My Knights of Montesa just drove around doing doughnuts in there all game like there wasn't even an enemy army on the table.

 

Always! I just didn't want to come off as negative or like I was trying to pick a fight! :)

There is no doubt that the Mukhtar Red Fury as an incredible attack piece! But, it has to maneuver into position to leverage it's 24'' positive range bands (not that hard with Forward Deployment +4'' and 6-2 MOV to be sure), while an HMG equipped model (like the Zhayedan) can let rip from your DZ and still cover a large chunk of the board with it's +3 rangeband. Getting closer to your opponents troops is also always putting yourself at more risk, especially as the Mukhtar is allergic to melee attacks and direct templates. I also think that in the modern meta that has seen a significant increase in armor and multi wound models means that a DMG 13 weapon just no longer cuts it as the "primary damage dealer" (nowadays you can't just crit yourself through stuff like you used to after all). I wouldn't fancy using a standard HMG against a Jotum, but it's still infinitely better (see what I did there? ;)) than the Red Fury.

I actually feel that the durability is a rather big deal here; having Immunity (Shock) and Regenerating at 13 rather 11 are real benefits of picking the Djanbazan over the Zhayedan.

Then again, when firing the only times you'd wan't the Djan over the Zhay is when you're firing at mimetism -6 troops (or -3 out of cover, which is rare), or smoke is involved. If we look at the amount the times the HMG gets fired during a game, by far most of the time you're firing at a non Mimetism -6 model without smoke in cover, so by that metric the Immortal gives you way more bang for your buck. We can ofcourse argue whether the few times you'd want the Djanbazan are more important to the end result of the game, but you already had a MSV2 model in your list in this case, which surely should cause an inflation to the value of having a second one? The Mukhtar and Djan are also shut down by White Noise (and Mirrorball), which don't work against the Zhayedan.

Against the Mimetism -6 Sniper the difference between the Zhayedan and Djanbazan shooting is an additional -3; if I have to throw 4 dice at 9s against a single dice coming back, I'll do that if I must - it's not great by any strech, but doable. The Djanbazan suffers the same -3 against all targets in cover after all!

A definate bonus to be sure! The Zhayedan can be your Lieutenant though, and I'd consider this to be a totally viable way of running him in a mission that doesn't award points for killing lieutenants and I'd not feel badly penalized by taking of CoC - that's a pretty valuable extra order to use after all.

Surely a fight you don't want to pick if possible, but against everything else? Anything that your opponent leaves into spots that the Zhaydean can get a LoF on is really at danger. I like to use him (in RTF for sure) as a supporting fire piece that forces opponents to stay out of long fire lanes and positions that overlook my advancing elements lest they get swept by the effectively BS 15 HMG... Surely this same can be achieved in Vanilla as well? Sure, the same effect can be dublicated (and surprassed) with other options, but do any of them do it for 33pts/1,5SWC/1 combat group slot (and with a potential LT order attached)?

Please tell me if I'm way off base here, you're the Vanilla player out of us two! :)

 

I think it's useful to distinguish between different types of "attack pieces." I've always found Zavros' N3 guide helpful - he coined the terms "hammer" for a unit that removes enemy AROs (usually with an HMG, although snipers and feuerbachs can also play this role), vs. "hunters" which go into the midfield to kill units hiding there (and ideally want a spitfire or red fury).

By that classification, the Mukhtar is a hunter. The Djanbazan and Zhayedan are hammers. First the hammer clears out AROs from long range, then once the coast is clear, the Mukhtar moves up unopposed and starts murdering.

Now, Zavros was writing from a Pano perspective, and other factions don't necessarily play the same way. When I played Vanilla in N3, I liked to take two Mukhtars to fill both the hunter and hammer roles. By deploying one on each flank, forward deployed, it was usually possible to get one of them within 24" of any opposing ARO piece (sometimes with the help of smoke). So I would run without an HMG. It worked most of the time, although the occasional game where neither Mukhtar could get at a sniper was brutal.

Assuming you do want to take an HMG, I think Zavros' reasoning is still sound; the HMG should stay back and kill AROs. Other pieces will move up the board. So, I think it's overly optimistic to expect that your HMG will get to kill "anything that your opponent leaves into spots that the Zhay can get a LoF on." A good opponent will be able to hide their pieces from your HMG. The only things that HMG is going to be shooting at are the ARO pieces that your opponent wants your HMG to be shooting at.

What do dedicated ARO pieces have? Core link bonuses, mimetism, and MSV2 are the three main abilities that make a good ARO piece.

Neither the Djan nor the Zhay is a good enough hammer to take on a core linked ARO piece, IMHO. Even against an entry-level linked ARO, say a Securitate feuerbach: the Zhay is 48% to gun him down in the active turn, but 26% to get knocked out himself. For a dedicated active turn attack piece, those are terrible odds. The Djan will be even worse, and it won't help him to shoot through smoke.

Against an ARO piece with mimetism, the Djan is far superior. Even if it's only mim(-3), the Djan will get a huge edge by shooting through smoke. It's not accurate to say that "by far most of the time you're firing without smoke." You're playing Haqq and you have a Mukhtar and a Djan in your list. Of course you will bring a lot of smoke, and it will be trivial to put some down for the Djan whenever you need it.

Against an ARO piece with MSV2, the Zhay is superior. However, the Djan is probably good enough. Against a Bao sniper, for example, the Djan is 61%-14%. I'll take those odds. The Zhay is 73%-8% - an improvement, but not enough for me to care much whether I have the Djan or the Zhay for that particular fight.

The Djan doesn't need to worry about White Noise. White Noise is no longer an ARO in N4, so the Djan will never see it while shooting at the enemy ARO pieces. Mirrorball now generates Eclipse rather than White Noise, so it will stop both the Djan and the Zhay if your opponent can get it down in ARO, although I can't think of a scenario where that's likely.

All that being said, my thinking is this: neither of them is a great hammer. It would still be reasonable to take neither of them. Put the points into two Mukhtars, and when you need to deal with ARO pieces, just block them with smoke and ignore them or Mukhtar them. If you do want to worry about ARO pieces, the most dangerous ones for Haqq are the ones with MSV2, which is an argument for the Zhayedan. However, the Djanbazan also works and is more versatile. Either way, no matter which you take, be aware that it won't be able to deal with the most common type of ARO, the core linked ARO. You will still need to get around those with smoke.

A final note: if you do go with the Zhay, consider upgrading it to a Shakush HMG. You only lose 1 point of BS, and you gain a lot of durability and an extra order.

 

So you two are saying they have differing advantages and disadvantages that should be leveraged based on mission, table, opponent and other factors?






:D

 

Well, when you build your list you don't know what the table or opponent will be.

 

Another hammer piece that needs to be considered is Knauf.

I know, I know. Weird choice. But he is a viable choice.

I include him in every vanilla list that I build at the moment, and here's why (it's not just me being stubborn, I promise):

1. Out of the Djanbazan, Zhayedan, and himself, he's the cheapest. The points are 32 for him, 33 for the Zhayedan, and 34 for the Djanbazan. Not much of a difference, but a difference nonetheless.
2. Out of the three units he has the most flexible rangebands. Where HMGs lose efficacy at 32", the sniper continues all the way to 48". This means he's both order efficient, and advantaged at long range. Order efficient because he rarely needs to move to get into range, and advantaged because at 33" he's going to smoke enemy HMGs, feuerbachs, rocket launchers etc. He'll take on enemy TR remotes, far more safely than the other picks.
3. He has the most flexible weapon too. HMGs are nice, but single damage 15 hits aren't great against armour. The multi-sniper gives you AP, which lets you threaten those targets with 8+ armour, and DA, which lets you utterly devour everything else. He also has shock on all his shots, like the Zhayedan. Basically, an HMG is going to start struggling against competent targets when you're putting 1 or 2 saves their way. Knauf is either forcing 2 / 4 / 6 saves, or has the capability to half armour values. The multi-sniper is far better against a wider range of targets.
4. In N4, he can shoot through smoke, like the Djanbazan. Not very well, granted. But he can do it in a pinch. And 3 dice on 7s, isn't terrible odds. Obviously this gives him a leg up on the Zhayedan, which can't do it at all.
5. He AROs far more effectively than a long-range HMG does. The HMG will probably suffer if in suppressive fire, because it's being used as a long-range piece, so you'll probably be in the -3 range-band for most shots. Unless you spend significant orders pushing up. The same isn't true for Knauf. In the late game he's very happy to sit on a rooftop in your deployment zone and take lethal AROs at significant distances.
6. The fact that he has mimetism makes up for his marginally lower armour value, in most firefights.
7. He has very "all weather" skills and abilities. His combination of MSV and mimetism makes him exceptionally good against soft and medium targets. Against the hardest targets such as a linked Kamau, he suffers just as much as the Djanbazan and Zhayedan do. But there's very little you can put Knauf against that'll result in him truly struggling.

Let's take a look against a few targets, to contextualise my claims.

Note: I'm using the old N3 calculator, which overestimates the impact of crits on the results. This is because it's going to assume situations occur where you auto-wound, but this doesn't happen anymore in N4. Consequently it will wrongly pump up the HMG numbers most, because they have the highest chance of scoring a crit.

First number is your chance of inflicting 1+ wound, second number is theirs.

Vs Securitate feuerbach in core fireteam (basically a vanilla BS12 dude in a fireteam)

• Knauf: 56% / 29%
• Zhayedan: 50% / 26%
• Djanbazan: 38% / 40%

Vs Lynx sniper (BS13, mimetism-6)

• Knauf: 61% / 18%
• Zhayedan: 47% / 26%
• Djanbazan: 59% / 16%

Vs Kamau fireteam (BS13, mimetism-3, MSV2, fireteam)

• Knauf: 37% / 46%
• Zhayedan: 34% / 43%
• Djanbazan: 34% / 41%

Vs Avatar (BS15, mimetism-6, ARM9, just for a bit of fun)

• Knauf: 36% / 28%
• Zhayedan: 26% / 38%
• Djanbazan: 30% / 26%

As you can see, Knauf is really as good, or better, than the other alternatives. However of course the numbers are assuming everyone is in good range, which is a bit misleading because snipers can take longer shots that might result in the enemy being on +0s, or -3s. Also remember that this N3 dice calculator is inflating the HMG numbers more than the sniper numbers by assuming more crits pushing through more auto-wounds.

Given that Knauf can shoot through smoke, kill weak ARO pieces instantly, take on highly armoured targets confidently, costs less than the alternatives, and arguably AROs better than many other pieces, I think he's a great pick.