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Timing ARO: BS attack then move from PT cover to PT cover

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Nihilim, Dec 10, 2020.

  1. Hisey

    Hisey Well-Known Member

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    It would, though there might be other implications of that choice that no one's looked into yet.

    Honestly, there's a large section of the player base who would be surprised if you told them that it was not a requirement for move to be the first short skill declared. When discussing this very thing with a local player earlier today, that was his response to me.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It would remove a lot of interesting tactical options.

    The issue here isn't the interaction (both options are entirely playable), rather it's the ambiguity.
     
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  3. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Let's take a step back.

    Scenario as already stated:
    • Alice (while in Cover) declares BS Attack on Charlie
    • Charlie declares ARO BS Attack
    • Alice declares Move leaving Partial Cover and closing in
    This is the Generic Skill
    upload_2020-12-14_16-33-20.png

    Let's break up the steps.

    First of all, Alice declares BS Attack. Are the requirements met? She has an appropriate weapon, check. She has LoF on Charlie, check. She is not Engaged, check. As stated in the effects (3rd bullet) she must distribuite her Burst at this moment.

    Then Charlie declares his ARO BS Attack. Are the requirements met? He has an appropriate weapon, check. He has LoF on Alice, check. He is not Engaged, check. FWIW, in ARO you cannot distribuite Burst at all, single target anyway.

    Lastly, Alice moves.

    Resolution step.
    We already assigned the targets, we already split burst. We need only to check ranges, because this is done AT THIS STEP.
    It is at this step that (thanks to ALL AT ONCE) you pick a point for shooting and check if which range bracket you fall.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @tox you're glossing over the sticking point and you're also messing up the resolution step a bit. Let me detail it a bit closer;

    So;
    1. Alice Shoots, LOF checks out okay
    2. Bob Shoots back, LOF checks out okay
    3. Alice Moves
    4. No ARO
    5. Yes, Bob had LOF and as such had an ARO
    6. Alice declared an attack with a weapon capable of doing so. Bob declared an attack with a weapon capable of doing so. Measure sticks out, ranges get determined. MODs determined. Rolls made.
    6.1 Who got his makes ARM rolls
    6.2 Who got hit makes Guts Rolls.

    It is very clear that Alice has to pick the spot she's shooting from at step 1. Likewise it's very clear Bob has to pick where he's shooting from at step 2 (which according to IJW's ruling is also when LOF for the attack is checked).
    The sticking point is if the important box that says all details of the order has to be declared immediately also includes where you are shooting at, because there are no rules in evidence that explicitly states that.

    Please see the important box here (bold emphasis added to highlight the contentious issue):
    https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#Order_Expenditure_Sequence

    IMPORTANT
    All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared.

    For instance, if you declare a movement, specify the entire route; if you declare a BS Attack, specify which Weapon will be used, who the targets are, where the Trooper shoots from, how the Burst is divided, etc.

    If the Player declares a Skill and, during the Resolution step, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is cancelled and the Trooper is considered to have performed an Idle, so they still generate AROs, and lose the ammunition or equipment used, if they declared the use of a Disposable weapon or piece of Equipment.​
     
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  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    No, it's not.
    It's clear that LoF requirement has to be met there.
    Then in resolution you pick your spot, check ranges and so on.
    If requirements are not met (out of range, choose a spot where you cannot see one of the target you split Burst to, yaddayaddayadda), the skill is cancelled
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared.

    For instance, if you declare a movement, specify the entire route; if you declare a BS Attack, specify which Weapon will be used, who the targets are, where the Trooper shoots from, how the Burst is divided, etc.

    If the Player declares a Skill and, during the Resolution step, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is cancelled and the Trooper is considered to have performed an Idle, so they still generate AROs, and lose the ammunition or equipment used, if they declared the use of a Disposable weapon or piece of Equipment.​


    How much clearer can it get?
     
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  7. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Sorry, i wrote without turning on my brain due to lack of coffee and wrote the wrong bit.
    You are right, the spot you shot FROM is fixed there. But your target can be shot at any point of his movement.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and the sticking point is when you need to declare what that point is.

    You're referring to the All At Once rules which says at any point in the movement, but it doesn't say whether that point is chosen at any point during the order or if it is chosen on declaration as the important box heavily implies by saying that all details have to be specified.

    It is somewhat annoying that I can't find a rule that explicitly states that a BS Attack has to have a LOF between the point you shoot from and the point you shoot at (can only find that you need LOF at any point in the order, the actual shot's line of fire seems to be left implied by the nomenclature, or I'm just missing it). Point is, since LOF is checked on declaration, that gives even more credence for that the LOF of the actual attack also has to be checked on declaration.

    In fact, is the unit even a target at the points in movement where it isn't attacked?
     
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