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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I've been just sighing tiredly at the it is always your turn thing for years now. I played Onyx for two seasons and mostly against Nomads and Tohaaa. Between all the smoke it felt more like the ARO mechanic only exists against me and I might as well go to my taxes or something while my opponents do their turn. And since somehow they haven't even changed the most powerful and cheapest rule in the game one bit I don't think it'll be any different now.
     
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  2. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Another one added to the Ignore list.
     
  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    @Triumph, please don't use retarded as a slur.

    @Zewrath to answer your initial question - no, this isn't healthy for the game, but it's more complex than "a single unit is able to deal with any ARO it encounters". First, there are degrees of evil; some of those examples come with a hefty price tag (the cheapest Bolt Core costs 113 pts, Haris with Kriza - 99, the others are cheaper. Dakini fireteams are a thing since the introduction of OSS. Grenzers - and especially Karhu - are nasty, but if they want a cheap team it'll be pretty barebones and will fold after losing the point man. And if a single fireteam starting in DZ can reliably take down any and all AROs with enough leftover orders for the list to do something else - then it's time to start adding more terrain to the tables, because it's a safe bet that they were too open.

    My problem is more with the current fireteam rules, making it all too easy to min-max a monster - as others said, there's too many special cases, mixed links, and wildcards. This should be a thing for a limited number of sectorials - QK should be flexible and then some, wildcard Homeridae make perfect sense, but in most other cases - it's hard to remember and care about linking limitations. And I doubt this can be easily fixed with changing just the fireteam rules.

    Then there's the issue of removing various balancing mechanics and restraining bolts (heh). Dakini fireteam was balanced by requiring a hacker, and remotes being unable to go prone. Not anymore. This might be an issue, and I'm saying this as an OSS player. Karhu might be a problem, but I'm not particularly awed by SWF, so the rest of the force might hold them back, we'll see. Bulleteers and Bolts are probably balanced better than Kamau sniper was. I'm a bit worried about Nomad balance, because it's getting harder to point something they're not good at, as in top-of-the-line good. But I might be prejudiced and prone to see them as CB's darlings.

    Bottom line is - I do see a problem, but can't say yet how serious it'll be, and how N4 balance will play out. We need more time and data. And that damn fireteams' rules update.
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Stiopa

    An overall excellent write up and not much I disagree with here.
    Thank you for the contribution.
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I am not the one who had to bring back a thread from nearly two months ago to try (and fail) to dunk on someone else.

    But seriously, you can't expect me not to defend myself if (or in this case when) personal attacks are made.

    You have one guy using literal slurs and and another guy saying "don't do that", there's not really a middle ground there.
     
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  6. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    No safe LT choices or CoC, direct attack pieces are lacking compared to other vanillas
    impersonator or equivalent (andromeda, uxia) puts Nomads into LoL 1st turn guaranteed unless they spent 3 slots on basic Moderators
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    while in overall I agree with this post, there is one part that I've seen as granted for true for a lot of people: "nomads are the CB's darlings".

    I want to understand why is that? because as a nomad player, but also as an overall Infinity collector I have the feeling that nomads are one of the worst treated factions by CB (tohaa is the worst treated by CB by a big difference). They got the worst revisions in n3 (both BJC and CJC got only half of the miniatures revised, not all as other sectorials got, BJC got almost nothing revised in profiles, TJC came half baked). In miniatures, they have the most number of old ones, the fewer number of re-editions (Except for morlocks, who knows why that), and retain one of the oldest (if not the oldest) miniature in the catalog (combi zero). They had to wait more than a year to get the lore for their 3rd sectorial (2 books) and got one of the worst marketing done for that sectorial for all the sectorials from that time and later. They will not get a 4th one (or so said B the last time, making black hand a non-possible dream, even if it was hinted at some point, which means less options in the end). They got one profile unrevised in n2 that remained more than half n3 without revison (Securitates). On paper they are allways top by some people, but the results in tournament were more in the mid field (they are not top, they are not bottom neither). In rules they look as if they have of everything, but they lack "command-related skills" (like lieutenant 2 or CoC), have the most obvious lt in the game and lost options in that regard in n4 (but got a 0SWC in the moderator side). Maybe I am also biased, but I've been following the game since almost its birth (even did a lot of demos during the beta) and collecting miniatures from almost every faction (I only lack CA and O12 at the moment, but I only collect aleph at almost the same level as nomads), and the only time I felt that CB did a bit extra for nomads that didn't for other factions was when they released the szalamander pilot when the fans asked for it (late n1 or beggining of n2, there were no pilot rules, it was because of the n1 ilustration)

    now in n4 they got a big showtime at the beggining, something any other faction has got at some point. So really, without double meaning, can you tell me why do you see them like that?
     
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  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Exactly this.

    This on top of the fact that the 15 model limit heavily restricts Nomads in regards to taking filler units as well as flanking Warbands.

    A Fiday/Kitsune in reserve against Nomads is a horrendous experience for the Nomads player.
    The new Duroc with his super jump and Van Zant ability doesn’t help either.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    On the topic of OSS, from what I can read on the Aleph forums there seem to be some inherent negativity towards a full Dakini team as anything other than a defensive one, and even then there's some uncertainty whether it's worth it, owing to the Pitcher Issue so to speak. The meta seems to be shifting to a point where the environment is actively hostile to hackable units, particularly those without tinbots.

    Time will tell whether that's a good or bad thing, I think, but it's sort of funny how hard the game leans into everything that Nomads have, except for the LoL issue, be it smoke, eclipse, super-strong ARO pieces, or super-strong aggression pieces. Owing to me playing almost exclusively factions that are not geared to LT assassination, I must say this fragile Nomad command structure people talk about seem like something I can't exploit which means it's all uphill for me.
    I'm not going to say that this is entirely bad design, but I do want to say that as much as this is a design choice for Nomads to have this issue and one you need to come to terms with how to deal with; not all factions can actually exploit it and a single obvious Moderator will make the cut with minimal risk of death (particularly if there's buildings to hide in) if the opponent plays a faction who can't exploit it; even if those factions are getting fewer.

    Point is; there are discrepancies between factions, and not just in that factions have different units with different strengths; the number of factions that can exploit a given faction's built in weaknesses vary from what faction that is.

    And the big question is whether the game should progress towards where decent solutions to all power combos should be generally available or whether the power combos should be nerfed instead.
    Or to phrase it from the perspective of a few armies;
    IA: should all sectorials have access to decent grenade launchers? To deal with repeaters and Core snipers.
    Nomads: should all armies have access to some form of CoC? To parry LoL
    JSA: should all armies have access to Eclipse? To deal with Core snipers
    Ariadna: should all armies have access to at least a basic hacking net? To deal with the cheaper TAGs and HI
    Starmada: should some basic form of infiltrating Camouflage trooper be standard issue for all sectorials?

    Edit.
    In fact, is there anything in the game that can't be solved by having X-Visor Grenade Launchers in a Core? Kamau? Bomb the Fusiliers from 32". Haris Kriza? Bomb the helpers from 32". Extensive repeater net across the entire gaming field with Guided Missiles? Bomb the key repeaters from 24". Enemy X-Visor Grenade Launcher? Bomb it before they bomb you.
    Is that a game we want? I'd prefer to see the absolute strongest units toned down instead of a huge power creep, don't know about you.
     
  10. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Now, guided stategy and aggressive pitcher use are joke tactics and dakini teams should be thankful when someone tries to get rid of the sniper in 3 orders AT BEST (pitcher, hack, shoot) instead of one

    Strong X-visor grenade launchers are in the game weakest armies (Starco and Druze) so I have 0 worry about them
     
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  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Before the rest of my post, I want to agree strongly with these statements:

    Very much agreed. Armies that are lacking certain tools by design shouldn't be dragged into universal-easy-button availability to deal with stuff that's too powerful elsewhere.

    Mild disagreement mode back on:

    As usual, the loudest voices are exaggerating. This is the army that can field an infiltrating TO KHD with NWI, Dogged camo infiltrating KHDs, a KHD Haris leader, a cheap-ass infiltrating TO hacker, or a pitcher-toting Hacker with B3 Oblivion. They're fine.

    Whiners always want to remove the obviously-a-feature weaknesses from their factions. Nomads have shaky leadership, Pan O don't have normal smoke, and OSS is lacking Tinbots

    Hacking -that does not have great backup- in whatever form, I'd agree. Redundancy (more hackers to back you up) or marker states seem to be the other factors that keep hackers alive now.

    You can also think of them as order-soaks like BS ARO pieces, so sometimes seeming vulnerability is a good way to sucker 2 or 3 orders out of the opponent that would otherwise be spent on a TAG rush or consolidatiion. As a Nomad player I loooooved healing my hacker back up to the opponent's annoyance.

    Hacking did get oversimplified a bit into Paper/Rock/Scissors unfortunately. RIP flexible utility hackers with mild offensive capability.

    Speaking from painful experience, everyone has the tools to exploit it. AD troops, Spec Fire, or camo suicide trooper aimed at Lieutenant Obvious will do fine. If you've had trouble with it, you might challenge yourself to exploit this specific weakness against your Nomad opponents in future (don't tell Miralad I said you should do that. :) ).

    This is exactly one of the ways in which you can handle Lt. Obvious, Not-Terribly-Secret Black Hand Operative At Large.

    Don't forget that you can Spotlight him through his own repeater net, if your hacker in in a different Order Group from whatever your bombardment device is (which is a common SML or LGL list design).
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then I have a counter-challenge: design an IA list that can do that without also jeopardising the mission - which you'll be picking.

    I've found that it is a great waste of time to try and get anyone, Nomad players included, into LoL when playing IA or WB and that Yu Jing in general struggle to do this. Typically opponents will use cutting edge technology that foils my very best attempt: they place their LT under a roof. Some tables might allow for it, but... meh.
     
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  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Mahtamori

    IDK man... my Liu Xing are killing obvious Lt’s pretty decently.
    Sure, he’s not foolproof but his close range kit as well as the the extra wound have made him very serviceable for me.
     
    #93 Zewrath, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then a very serious question ; if you can use liu xing for this against *nomads*, is there any army that is truly safe against lt assassination? How much LT spoofing is enough to stop it?

    Also,why aren't your Nomad opponents bringing any hacking or Transductors at all?

    Edit: failure rate for Louie against most forces should be close to 83% if he LT is not set up terribly, and that's just the orders required for the Louie to get LOF
     
    #94 Mahtamori, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Mahtamori

    Well you did say anyone, not Nomads specifically, besides you can safely land most places that aren't a Repeater zone.
    N4 DZ's are not infested with 4 S3 REM's + 2 Baggage REM's anymore due to the 15 model restrictions and often I find most Nomads Repeaters sits on a Moran platform, along with Mary Problems and Jazz.

    I'm not sure what failure rate you're referring to though, unless you're making the erroneous assumption that I suggest that you use AD: Explode to kill a Lt.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    I like it. I'm gonna keep using it.

    Do you just not ever use or pretend to hide Noctofiers in your list?
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I did say that as a response to a claim that anyone can do it against Nomads, so it as against Nomads specifically .

    Failure rate is estimation of 2 HD users with WIP 13 and one or two repeaters covering the area around the LT (and due to limitations with he old calculator I'm using DAM 15) edit: and them getting AROs against two orders. LT is assumed to have the benefit of a roof and some cover so dropping directly on them isn't a thing. Otherwise I assume that the Nomad player is incapable of deploying anyone able o shoot in the LTs area.

    P.s. this is NOT saying "omg buff mah IA", it's saying "the threat of LT assassination as a great tactic from *everyone* is ignoring a lot of factors"

    (Todays Firefox Android update really screwed my browser over. Missing button pressses all over he place,double pressing,can't erase properly. Time to uninstall this piece of crap)
     
    #97 Mahtamori, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Everyone is becoming tohaa now with optimal fireteam loadouts becoming quickly becoming solved and therefore dictating a lot of list construction.

    Just carpet bomb the missile bot, if they got repeaters out there the first time they can easily do it again.
    Also carpet bomb the obivous LT. (or sneak a camo dude up there, make a hole in their lines and exploit it, any AD can get the job done.)

    The more I think about and play this edition the more I find that fireteams break everything. A lot of what people seem to be complaining about currently whether it is pitchers, grenade launchers, apex gunfighters or what have you they all have the same thing in common in that they are more or less fine in vanilla but get cranked to an absurd degree that has overall negative effects on the game. Sooner the FT rules get reworked the better.
     
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  19. sackofowls

    sackofowls Member

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    Wait, can a fireteams members do Speculative Fire? I thought they couldn't do entire orders.

    But now I'm not seeing anything in the annex.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The restriction you're thinking of was removed from the rules when Human Sphere was released in its N3 version.
     
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