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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Apsara -> 13
    Link -> 16
    Supportware -> 19
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Degenerate
    adjective
    /dɪˈdʒɛn(ə)rət/
    1. having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable; showing evidence of decline.

    What obvious reason? The term is a perfectly adequate description for the topic at hand, unless you’re going to pull a @meikyoushisui and suddenly infer it’s a racist term or something.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It has tended to be used in a impolitic / abusive sense (particularly when coupled with ablest slurs such as 'retarded'). But on its own it's essentially fine AFAIK.
     
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  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    If you want to hash this out again, take it to my DMs. Don't derail the good conversation here because someone called you out for using a term (completely unrelated to this conversation) steeped in decades of ableism and racism months ago. And point of fact, the inference wasn't sudden, it's based on literally hundreds of years of it being used in outdated, racist, unscientific bullshit.
     
  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Sergei Simonov likes this.
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Dude, really? If you have a problem being called out for using racist terminology and then get offended when people call you out for it, maybe you should actually consider improving as a human being? Or at least not throwing out openly racist terms? Try to keep the mask on a little bit for us, at least.

    It's curious that you'll bring up the time we had that conversation, but you won't actually bring up the word you used. We both know that "degenerate" as a term is fine depending on the context. The word you used, "mongoloid", is never fine, because it was literally coined by a bunch of guys justifying so-called "scientific" racism and then extended to refer to people with what is now called Down's Syndrome.

    If I recall correctly, wasn't your defense to the term being racist that you were actually slurring disabled people?
     
  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @meikyoushisui
    Oh, so context matters now all of the sudden?
    Lmao, that wasn’t the case last time I checked.

    Mongoloid is commonly understood to be an idiot or mouth breather, so to speak.
    The origin is irrelevant when taking context into account.

    By your own logic, it’s impossible for a homosexual to be offended by the word “faggot” because it’s used to describe a bundle of sticks.

    It’s interesting to observe how you claim that I’m offended when I’ve made no such statements.
    It’s also interesting to observe how you’re trying to actually paint me as a “racist” when I’m a liberal individualist and you actually don’t know much about me, lol.

    Mate, give it a rest. I was just calling out a person tone policing, which made me think of you and I was merely yanking your chain.
    I’m sorry I thought you had a better sense of humour, and you’re welcome to continue made walls of texts of how “offensive” you perceive me to be.

    I’ll leave you be for now, lol.
     
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    No, that's a good strawman of my reasoning, but let me lay it out so that it's very clear.

    Context is important. That is exactly the reason why you shouldn't use the word "mongoloid" as an insult -- because the reason it is an insult is that it was a racial slur, and then it was an ableist slur. On the other hand, "degenerate" does not have its origin as a slur -- though as a secondary meaning, it has certainly picked one up due to its usage in Naziism (originally to refer to "degenerate art"). That is why contextually, "degenerate" may or may not be a slur, but "mongoloid" always will be one. Same for the f-slur, except that pretty much no one uses it to mean a bundle of sticks in modern English.

    I never called you a racist, I just said you used a word with racist connotations, in a way that indexed those connotations (indirectly, but did directly index the ableist connotations of the word), in the context of slurring a person who is neurodivergent. Which factually, is a thing you did do. That's not really up for debate.

    If you're not a racist, I would suggest that maybe some soul-searching on why you would want to use the vocabulary that racists do in exactly the same way that racists do (i.e., as a slur), and that that would potentially improve your ability to interact with other humans?
     
    #68 meikyoushisui, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    No, it’s actually a complete rebuttal, which why it’s hilarious to see you use complicated sophistry to reach this conclusion:

    Except this is you implicitly, almost explicitly doing so. Be offended all you wish, but keep the lies out. :)


    Well, considering the fact that I manage, employ and speak to anything between 35 to upwards of 105 people every single day, I don’t consider myself impaired regarding interacting with people.

    I think what you mean is improving my ability to get along with people who unironically use terms like “ableism” “sexism” and “racists”, throwing them left and right, and quite frankly I just don’t respect those kind of people.
    I’m sorry if you think I should but I really do not.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

    Nah, I'm out. I'll just go back to ignoring him for the sake of my forum experience. If the mods actually want to y'know, moderate their forum for once, I'll leave that to them.
     
  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    “I’m sorry” as in “I feel sorry for you”

    For a person who claims to be a language expert, you’re either shockingly bad at your job or just stuck on auto-pilot on assuming malicious intent.
    Not that I’m surprised if the later is the case.

    SJW types tend to do exactly that
     
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  13. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    On original topic, I don't really care about new absurdly strong active turn units. It's always been a thing in Infinity, with the like of the Avatar, Cutter, Sphinx or Achilles who'll most likely crush anything standing in front of them until they run out of orders, dies to attrition or get stopped by other means like hacking. A vostok or dakini in a fireteam shooting at BS19/18 is absurdly good, but also completely overkill.

    I have, however, a much bigger concern about ARO firepower. Infinity is very scenery dependent, and even with all the goodwill in the world you'll sometime make a bad table that'll make strong ARO threat absolutely unbearable to play against. The ARO mechanic is supposed to make it so "It's always your turn", but I've seen my fair share of games very early comes to a point where "it'll never be your turn again", because the table is locked by a powerful sniper/ML in core who's still standing after you used the few cards you could against it and failed.
    And there come the new grenzer/bolt MSR, setting up a new absurdly high threshold for reactive firepower that only 1 or 2 big guns in your faction can challenge (and often on poor odds), which means you'll have to rely on skirmishers to get rid of the threat and any unit that isn't one of those big guns or a skirmisher is basically inexistent until the job is done.
    For example, I see a lot of hype around the reworked azrai'l, and all I can think of is that it won't get shit done because he's still just a measly BS13 HMG/Feuerbach, and you need something bigger (or sneakier) to clear up the way if you want him to be something else than a glorified 40pts cheerleader.

    Honestly, at this point I almost whish the fireteam core would just disappear. Give +1B and sixth sense to fireteam duo and haris, and allow for 2 haris maybe (#tohaas-had-the-right-idea-with-their-triads), give factions/sectorials who need it more tools to defend themselves at close range, idk, but please CB just do something. At the moment you have a whole bunch of very cool units who'll never see the board because they simply can't do what they're designed to do either because they can't keep up with the power creep, or because they're taking the spot/points/SWC of something that could.
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Well, supposedly the fireteam rules are supposed to change at some point and what we have are just place holder rules. Or at least this is what @Bostria was telling us when the situation was first revealed with the fireteam rules being printed in an online document instead of in the rulebook. Whether or not you believe him is up to you.
     
  15. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    @Triumph Yeah I remember that, but looking at how they're doing it currently with all the wildcards and stuff I highly doubt it'll move in the direction I advocate for here.
     
  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I call the infighting to stop, why on earth you try to ruin an interesting discussion with pointless non essential personal attacks?
     
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  17. Iver

    Iver Human Plus

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    Yeah, we're getting new fireteam rules in the near future.

    Also, the current ITS season has those Localized Decompression fields that you can use to cover the most advantageous sniper spots your opponent has access to if you know you're playing against a sectorial that likes to do the linked sniper shenanigans. That's an interesting thing to play with until we get the new link rules.
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    While true, I also think they should give us Nimbus Grenades back and just stop putting them on pants on head retarded profiles like the Shikami and Zhanying.
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Sedral

    While I get where you’re coming from, I don’t entirely agree.

    At the moment, unless I have something incredibly powerful and out of whack, that can pass for an ARO piece, then literally everything is hidden, either prone or in marker state.
    Even the Flash Pulse REM’s are hidden because they now provide precious orders.

    If you turn it down even further then we are just back to the boring place of N2, were it was “kill the everything first, do objectives turn 3”

    I don’t buy the premise a lot of people here are peddling with “well, active has always been powerful so just accept this”
    No, it used to be that there was though process involved in making your attack pieces work, with positioning and often smoke involved and/or usage of surprise attacks added with rangebands.
    This made infinity into a game of “puzzle solving” when you had “figure out” the best approach to each threat.

    Much of this is gone and have degenerated into “hur hur, my BS19 B5 Mimitism HMG wildcard goes brrrr!”

    If you nerf reactive links, without adjusting the offending active links then N4 will just devolve into 100% camo unhackable lists.
    My local meta have almost gone this way entirely, already and much of my YJ is doing the same.
    This makes it shockingly similar to N2 in this regard.
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    To add to the conversation I do not see a serious problem with it, it is just another puzzle to solve in the game, as is Ariadna camo spam, midfield minefiels, Nomads and now Yu Jing repeater network, Haqqs extremely reliable button pushers ectr ectr ectr, I used extensively Bolts in N3 running them midfield even to opponents deployment zone and nobody complained about them be BS22 with their shoguns, frankly they were considered trash back then.

    Each faction has its own advantages and disadvantages in problem solving and problem dealing and firepower is just one such factor, as noted factions with excessive firepower are limited in other ways.

    As with a new edition the meta globally and locally will contract to "the basics" for some time were firepower will be the most blunt and obvious solution until the players will find their way to wider and more esoteric ways to deal with the puzzle each game is.

    So study, adapt and evolve into new solutions.
     
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