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Berserk allowed when already in base contact?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Commoner1, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. Commoner1

    Commoner1 Well-Known Member

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    Is Berserk allowed when the active and reactive troopers are already in base contact when declaring Berserk?

    I'm pretty sure that this has been answered already but I didn't find the topic.
     
  2. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why not, according to the wiki the requirements are as follows:
    • The target must be within the user's LoF when this CC Special Skill is declared.
    • The target must be within the sum of the user's two MOV values.
    If you're already in base contact, both of those requirements would be satisfied.
     
  3. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    This has been temporarely ruled by IJW at least in FB: No, Berzerk is NOT one of the skills allowed while engaged in CC.
     
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  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Berserk is not on the list of skills allowed while Engaged, so no.

    It's also an Entire Order skill, so no using it in ARO either.
     
    #4 colbrook, Dec 2, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  5. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    seems silly, fluff-wise, than you can't go berserk when you are fighting. even worse when you spend two order. On the first order you berserk into combat, next order, a fraction of an instant later, you calm down and fight normally.
     
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  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I visualize it as needing to be part of a charge, carrying in your momentum; once you’re engaged you are both already grappling and you can’t get free enough to act with that level of impunity.
     
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  7. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, I have a huge issue with this then and would voice an opinion of dissent against such a ruling. I read over the rules for it (both requirements and effects) and there's no reason to suggest it can't be used in base contact unless you arbitrarily decide so. One of the bullet points even says "This CC Special Skill can be declared without being in Silhouette contact with an enemy," which suggests that the default modus operandi is base contact like a normal CC special skill.

    I feel like the primary reason to use Berserk isn't to combine double movement with an attack, but to get the unopposed roll on your CC attack. Especially since you can't even activate it unless you start in full LoF of the enemy? Seems quite inane and niche otherwise.
     
    #7 Catspaw, Dec 3, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  8. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    the issue comes from rules in the engaged state that list what rules you are allowed to use in the engaged state. Berserk not being one of them.
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The note about “can be declared” is important because normally CC skills have the engaged state as a prerequisite. Since berserk incorporates movement, it is unique in that regard.

    It’s very possible that a FAQ/errata document will allow berserk to be used when already in base contact, but for now it is not. As others have pointed out, there’s a very narrow list of skills that are allowed to be declared while engaged, and berserk isn’t one of them. Maybe it’s an error, but it’s the current rule, and it doesn’t render any cc units unusable to play this way.
     
  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    But this seems to be a simple omission. An omission which creates a surprising ruling that reinforces the omission instead of fixing it, greatly diminishing how useful an important CC skill is.
     
  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    It greatly undercuts the value of smoke + berserk (optionally Stealth) warbands which suddenly need LOF to Berserk and need to eat an ARO, instead of getting in b2b with the enemy and THEN makign use of the Berserk skill.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Until we get a ruling from CB or a FAQ document, we have no way to know if it was intentional or not.

    On the one hand, I was surprised, since this is a departure from how berserk has traditionally worked. On the other hand, they have given berserk out to significantly more units, so they might have intentionally reduced its power in order to enable it to be more widespread of a skill.
     
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  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Per my comment above, it’s adding some interesting new choices and tradeoffs to units that did not previously have access to the skill.
     
  14. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    That would all be fine and dandy if, however, Berserk wasn't listed as a CC Special Skill. Under the entry for CC Special Skills you get: "This Skill can only be used when the user is in Silhouette contact with the target. Any MODs the Skill may provide can be combined with other CC Special Skills, and they work equally during the Active Turn and the Reactive Turn, unless the Skill states otherwise." Berserk just so happens to have an extra feature that it can be used while not in Silhouette contact as well. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to use other skills like Martial Arts and NBW, because they aren't explicitly listed as skills you can use in the engaged state.
     
  15. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    it’s not really an omission so much as a large change to the berserk skill as a whole. The only reason it worked before was that it was an automatic skill that applied to your cc attack. With it being a separate skill altogether and having such a large rework it seems intentional now. I agree that it lost some functionality, but i cannot agree they forgot a piece when it seems they reworked the skill as a whole.


    the difference here is that I am not declaring martial arts. I am declaring cc attack and applying martial arts. Berserk is now a skill that must be declared as an entire order skill. If martial arts or NBW were the skills you declared they wouldn’t be allowed either because you cannot declare them while engaged, you must declare cc attack.


    N3 berserk was an automatic skill and you could apply it to CC attacks, you are no longer doing that at all.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    There’s probably a mistake somewhere. We need an authoritative statement of intent from CB.

    From Engaged:
    Berserk has “CC special skill” but does not have “CC attack”, and unlike martial arts, does not simply provide modifiers. Much of the berserk rules are about movement, with no clear statement of how to apply them if the model can’t move due to already being engaged.
     
  17. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    From Engaged:

    From CC Special Skill
    • This Skill can only be used when the user is in Silhouette contact with the target. Any MODs the Skill may provide can be combined with other CC Special Skills, and they work equally during the Active Turn and the Reactive Turn, unless the Skill states otherwise.

    To summarize, the Engaged state is defined as being in Silhouette contact with an enemy trooper. CC Special skills can only be used when in Silhouette contact (i.e. engaged) with an enemy trooper, and Berserk is a CC Special Skill. I mean honestly, this seems pretty cut and dry to me. The fact that you can use Berserk outside of Silhouette contact is irrelevant.
     
    #17 Catspaw, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    IJW has already confirmed you can't use Berserk while already engaged. It probably shouldn't have the CC Special Skill tag.

    I guess if you want to be super RAW it can only be used when in silhouette contact but not engaged, so Unconscious enemies, scenery structures, etc.

    He has also said that it's in the queue for a second pass/FAQ, but whether they change it or just remove the tag is undecided.

    I wouldn't mind seeing it being usable when Engaged, but remaining an Entire Order. This makes it an aggressive (active turn only) skill but makes it less of a death sentence to enter CC with a berserker. I'll miss my Galwegians being able to bounce an AP hit against anything that comes into B2B but N3 berserk was probably too good, especially on such a cheap suicide Trooper.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    CC Attack skills do not have Engaged as a requirement! They have silhouette contact as a requirement. Silhouette contact and Engaged are different things, it is possibly to be in silhouette contact without being Engaged (but not the other way around).

    For example; a Galwegian can Berserk an IMM-A TAG even when starting the order in silhouette contact because IMM-A TAGs do not cause the Gawlegian to enter Engaged state.
     
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  20. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    oh that is really interesting, I hadn't thought about that. thanks.
     
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