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Thoughts on Ye Mao

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think dropping them what? 1 point? Is actually going to make much difference.

    25-30 points medium infantry is an asset for sectorials with plenty of cheap orders. Having Zhanshi as the order base which are neither plentiful nor comparatively cheap and that White Banner generally is missing powerful solo pieces in the 45 to 60 point range means that the White Banner sectorial needs their 30-ish point units to be units that excel in their purpose and Ye Mao are generalists.
    Reading opinions on Wildcats it seems the most used profile there is a HRL profile as a warband hunter and this is something Ye Mao lack, add to it that Wildcats are notably cheaper, I think that Super-Jump is an asset and not a drawback for Ye Mao - even if the skill itself is partially defunct.

    Vanilla is a different beast; profiles without funky gear need funky weapons or funky ways of getting around quickly and the Ye Mao only has partially funky gear and mobility. I think it's less critical to have access to optimised profiles in vanilla, the priority there is to have access to good solos with the more supper-style unit that Ye Mao leans towards is more relaxed in that it's more important to have a greater selection of slightly different support-style units than to have great such.

    Not entirely sure where to take the unit to make them decent. Correcting Super-Jump to work like in N3 is most likely the path of least resistance, or for jumping to provide some of the cover bonus. Order efficiency skills like the Wildcats' NCO or the Pheasant's TacAware would benefit the fireteam side of the unit. Making missile launchers generally less crap wouldn't go amiss, either (1.5 SWC is about 1 too much on most units unless they came with some form of guidance system).
     
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I'd rather they cost the same but got some different gear that could really threaten premium pieces.

    If we were going to look for a price drop, realistically it would need to be closer to mid 20s and I don't know what you could drop without also making the unit even less desirable. Overall, I think medium infantry are still just a bit overpriced.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, but the gear and abilities are about as close to perfection as you come on units without a source for discounts, but it does make the price go up to the uncomfortable level near 30. Remove mimetism and you've got bouncy Wildcats, remove MSV1 and you've got bouncy Kaplans, remove both and you've got bouncy Zhanying. NWI HI niche for their gear is free, but oh well...

    On balance of things I've come to agree with you on Blitzen (or to make them less Karhu; E/Mitters - though I like the additional range that Panzerfaust gives them), but I think the first step has to be to make Super-Jump worth while as it's kind of relevant to a lot of units.
     
  4. csparris

    csparris Captain Sunshine

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    Yeah removing mimetism and MSV makes them less effective at dealing with camo and infiltrators. I think that's where they've got some good ability to deal with.

    I honestly think they're fine for a Haris, being that you can throw some wildcards in with them. I personally like them because they're rugged non-camo Guilang, and I've had great success with Guilang; it's akin to a linked Guilang if you will. I do wish they had climbing plus instead, such as them thematically being a mountain climbers...
     
  5. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Mimetism, msv, and an AP spitfire together do threaten premium pieces. It can outrange rifles and shotguns, under range hmgs, snipers, missiles, and feuerbachs. Mimetism keeps incoming attacks penalized. Msv1 ensures that the ye mao keeps good numbers to hit. AP means it can be a threat even to tags.
     
    Sedral likes this.
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    what happens when you want to Super Jump the YM but the wildcard needs to stay in place? It's a pain to deal with. It certainly can be done, but mostly by really good players. Most are just never going to super jump. I've tried a mixed team before and it really held me back. If they could at least do a move then it wouldn't have been a problem.
     
  7. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    This is why I’d categorize it as a fantastic solo striker. If you really want a fireteam, just keep it strictly ye mao so that they can jump to the top of a building to hide during the reactive turn.
     
  8. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    To me that's kinda disappointing because after you take a core, Ye Mao, you'll never be able to take a haris too. Although, as of now it's almost impossible to get a good list in WB that has a Core and Haris.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    It also depends why you're jumping, being in a mixed link reduces Yer Ma's mobility but it can still do popup attacks to deny cover to elevated troopers and gain unusual LoF angles.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Pogo shooting basically doesn't function in N4 for 4-4 S2 models. Their height window vs the terrain is so narrow it's not funny.
     
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think for the Haris, I'd be happier if they were not limited on the wildcards. One cheaper Tian Gau, or any other more expensive one or equal just irritates me.

    Funny thing is, I'd probably take them if they could do a core like many of their equivalents in other forces (see below). Many can form Haris as well as core. Why did they say no to White Banner and Ye Mao?

    MI Core teams: Wildcats, Morias, Vargar, Bagh-Mari, Bolts, Kaplans, Djanbazan, Sekban, Druze, Govad, Muyib, Yadu, Scot Guard, Briscards, Marauders, Grunts, Rodok, Yaogat
     
  12. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Zhanshi aren’t that expensive. You can get to 15 models with a shiang ji, Tian guo, and zhanshi as your core. A mixed haris or some gui leng. A doc and engineer. A ye mao or a tiger soldiers. Then remotes and monks to fill it out.

    Just because it’s not as absurd as it was, doesn’t mean it’s not useful. Two inches can get the edge of a silhouette that you couldn’t see before. The mobility of getting on top of terrain that you can hide a model on is also great. Moving over terrain to get unguarded angles is also fantastic.
     
  13. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Zhanshi aren't expensive in a vacuum, however relatively speaking compared to other basic line infantry, they pay extra for stats they won't ever use and are poor value compared to other line troopers because of that.
     
  14. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Those other line infantry aren’t available in white banner. 11 points as a base is only one point more than fusiliers and alguaciles. So, that’s 3-4 “extra” points in a white banner list.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's actually quite shit. There is a 10.8 millimeter window in which you can apply that jump. Any shorter, you can see over the terrain already, any higher, it's too high to jump. That's fucking tiny and not worth paying points for.

    Long jumping is situational at best. Hidden deployment remains a constant risk, not to mention it doesn't actually really help you deal with the usual need to get on top of a building which is to clear a problem model off it. You can argue there's potentiality more order efficiency in long jumping to move up, but that generally requires you to have spent more orders gun fighting a tonne of ARO things on the table to get board dominance to stop that skylining jumper from getting whacked by an ARO... so it more or less just comes out in the wash.

    Not to mention if you're fighting and killing all that shit so you can jump safely without giving free AROs you're probably capable of moving across the ground then anyway.

    End of the day, is super jump useful on the Ye Mao and other 4-4 S2 units? No, it's pretty clunky and shit. Should CB fix it? Fucking weeks ago.

    The other thing I think that is giving the Ye Mao grief is less to do with their stat line and more a meta thing, White Banner has weak link options to begin with, and the links that they do get largely don't support or force multiply the value of the Ye Mao. Their options limited to the Tian Gou which feel anywhere from fucking pointless to anemic and shitty, or a Shang Ji which while good really force the unit into an expensive place very quickly, and you can only put 1 in the link. Adil and Lei Gong aren't bad or overly expensive, but they also have really low synergy values with the Ye Mao.

    Oh and Gao who's still paying incorrect points cost fuck me please fix him @Koni EDIT: Actually he can't join them anymore in N4 for WB. Still, please fix his points cost for the love of god.

    Ye Mao are a toolbox MI unit, pretty similar to Wildcats in fact. Just like Wildcats they lack the ability to join other links, unlike Wildcats they don't benefit from their sectorial causing them to function as a "reverse Wildcard". It's pretty easy to use them as a Wildcard support pick when you can just Wildcard the rest of the fucking sectorial into your Wildcat link.

    It would just take a couple more useful Wildcard options in White Banner to be able to join and support the Ye Mao to make them actually feel really useful. For example if you could wildcard Lupe from CJC into Ye Mao, they'd find so much value out of the abuse they could pull from working with the Hacker profile (or MSV1 in general) abusing ARO baiting with an in link smoke throwing unit.
     
    #35 Triumph, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  16. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Having played with and against super jumping template launchers in n3, I find the current status of super jump fits CB’s goal of removing non interactive exchanges. It’s definitely worse, and it should probably be altered. It’s better for the health of the game now.
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    How is it non interactive? You can shoot back at them due to reciprocal LOF and it's been that way for quite a while. They fixed that shit in N3 after they realised they fucked it up with an earlier errata.
     
  18. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    The likelihood of being able to catch something in the ass as it protected a flank when up exponentially when your foreign point was six inches above the top of a building.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have to ask, but how often did that happen to people who knew it could potentially happen and how many orders were spent on denying cover in this way?
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you could catch new people off guard with stuff like that, but it's not like those same people who don't know how to deal with a Speculo don't get punked by those either. It's not really relevant.
     
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