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Thoughts on Ye Mao

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I'd like some of your feedback on these guys. So far I'm not happy with them. They feel like they are not worth the points. MSV1 is nice when the situation comes up but that's not all of the time. The Mimetisim is pretty good as usual. Super jump is meh but better than nothing i guess. But so far, every time I start a list with them now, I take them out for something else. Like Jujak spitfire instead of the YM AP spitfire. The same for the specialists. 31pts for a, yes pretty good hacker, still seems steep. I always end up trading him for a Guilang hacker. I did use them before N4 and they were killed like they were nothing. Then when I try to take a Haris of them, in WB because of the cost, it seems to hurt the rest of the force and I scrap them for other things. So it could be the way I'm using them but not sur. yet.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Be alot better if they could go into a core link, which given that the ambush qualities of WB become significantly weaker and the overall power level of fireteams in other sectorials crept upwards again with N4 I don't think is unwarranted anymore. We're pushing the ceiling with shit like B6 Kriza and ODD in links that can counter their own counter, I don't think the Ye Mao should be as limited as it is anymore.

    That said for the specific load outs the HD is a reasonable alternative to the Shang Ji in a Haris link. The MSV1 gives added flexibility in forcing uncontested AROs and it costs a fraction of the price to still get your hands on a BTS6 hacker in a tinbot link which makes it extremely durable against enemy hacking attempts.

    The engineer loadout is also very good support for a Shang Ji link. Having an unhackable engineer in the link for the Shang Ji (or HD Ye Mao) is very useful.

    That said things would be alot nicer if they just dropped Super Jump so they'd be cheaper, or unfucked Super Jump so it was actually a useable skill.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm of the high-level design opinion that Ye Mao should've been light heavies. Just add NWI and make 'em hackable. Will probably make 'em go up slightly in price, but we're talking only a couple of points or so.

    I don't think they should be wildcards, even though that would make them objectively better and make the sectorial objectively better, I think Jujak should serve that purpose within White Banner instead of Shang-Ji, again from a high-level design opinion than gameplay - I do think that particular change would actually even out the sectorial slightly.

    But as for the hand we've been dealt; no I haven't quite gotten them to perform. They're awkwardly in a spot where they don't have long range weapons, but still need some way of getting forward without spending an embarrassment of orders, not a good investment to have as ARO pieces and squishy. I believe Nomads are complaining about Wildcats? I think they're in the same boat for much the same reasons.
    I do have a few lists, though, where I'm using the Engineer profile instead of a Gongcheng, for the added combat value over the Zhanshi.
     
  4. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    I kind of like them and have gotten them to do a lot in my games, but i understand that they are expensive and the lack of fireteams options can be frustrating. They always end up in a value fight against the Jujaks and unless you are expecting lots of terrain or lots enemy mimetism troops its hard to justify bringing them over the extra wound of the HI.

    That being said they do have their niches:

    They are the best hackers in the sectorial and a link of Shang ji with tinbot and hackers keep the enemy afraid of our repeater network which in WB with the guilang deployable repeaters can be a tablewide affair.

    They have better synergyy with monks as their msv does allow them to fire through smoke which is great for their chain colts but complicated for their other weapons.

    If you manage to get "Rooftop superiority" (taking out enemy rooftop aros) they make good ambush units, waiting for the enemy to close then jumping out and taking targets of oportunity. They also are harder to hide from.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I can't but help feel like they were made just to appease those that wanted Tiger Soldiers that didn't combat jump. But they kinda failed there. Also, they are a meant to fight against some of the PanO Kaldstrom guys.

    I've thought of taking him a few times but I can take 2 Gongchen for the price of one Ye Mao!
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but when your list is 14 units, it's not possible and when I foresee myself spending less than 2 orders on actually repairing stuff, then having Mimetism, higher BS, and a much better set of guns on the Engineer is more valuable :p

    As a side note, I've been meaning to try using Wu Ming Pnzrfst and Jujak Engineers as "rich man's Daylami" to see how that goes. Theory being that their Panzerfausts can provide long range ARO and their armour can hopefully allow them to Guts/Prone if opponent sends too powerful HMGs after them and then have the template guard against pesky small fry getting close.
     
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  7. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I think they do have a role in certain missions, specifically the ones with Localized Decompression. They have Terrain (Total) and the AP Spitfire with B5 can take on a lot from those zones. But yeah, they are not the first thing that comes to mind when building WB lists...
     
  8. Khalipo

    Khalipo Well-Known Member

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    For me, they look uncooked. Super-jump is nerfed and i can't find a reason to their point value. Another thing that bothers me really is the inexistence of core.

    You're looking to a 100pts haris that just adds 1B to a BS12 AP Spitfire. It's good but we have AVA4 Guilang. We don't starve that mobility like IA does.

    I'd have loved if they had NWI, shock inmunity and some sort of CC capabilities. They are WILD CATS... they should fight.

    Maybe use the Asawira formula and cheapen them with the Frenzy skill..
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think my issue with them as they were supposed to embody the guerilla warfare nature of Yu Jing on the snow planet versus the numerically and logistically superior PanO forces.

    But they don't bring many means to punch up or trade. If the 27-30 pt 1 W ye mao packed a bunch of weapons that present an existential threat to high tech high armour units this might make them worthwhile. Then the MSV and mimetism is helping them land with those low burst hgih threat weapontry.
    But AP spitfires and multi-rifles are OK, but when you're outgunned just isn't going to cut it. I almost feel like they mixed up their loadouts with Karhu - blitzens, mines, emarats, d-charges. All weapons I'd expect in a guerilla force fighting high tech tags.
    Fuckin Karhu are faster and cheaper as well.
     
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  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Karhu are just batshit insane in general. I wouldn't consider them a fair comparison for anything.

    Ye Mao never really jumped out to me, either as N3 or N4 profiles. The super jump nerf just made them even less appealing. They're not bad in any particular facet, but the limited fireteam options and high price point just aren't inspiring on a trooper that doesn't offer more than straightforward gunfighting and a mediocre stat line.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Panzerfaust vs Blitzen. Potaito potaato. What makes Karhu strong is the built-in NCO and courage as well as a generally more focused stat line keeping the cost down. Mines in some shape or form would have been appropriate on the Ye Mao, for sure, and the sectorial is missing D-Charges and missile launchers are kind of terrible on most units.
    Unfortunately given the state of Super-Jump, 6-2 for an S2 is where it starts being useful :/
     
  12. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    Yeah, I kinda feel the same. I've used the Karhu in White Company and NCO, 6-2 mov with Climbing Plus is really good. I would honestly pick a Ye Mao AP Spitfire over the Karhu Feuerbach if it had these. Regarding D-Charges: Daofei getting them on all profiles is kinda nice.
     
  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I just played Mindtrap last night and the lack of Anti-Material weapons hurt a little. I managed to get a tie but that was due to the Blue Wolf DA CCW on the last turn with the last order.
     
  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    E/M weaponry presents a significantly greater threat to high armour, multi-wound models. Like the classic match-up of the jotum vs Ye mao. Panzerfausts have a broader range of applicability, but the match-up of yu jing vs Pano on Haungi Di paints a classic david vs goliath type fight. Except the White banner, and Ye Mao in particular don't pack a lot of things that genuinely would cause concern to a Jotum.
     
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  15. Ecthelion

    Ecthelion Well-Known Member

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    I tried a Ye Mao haris like... once. For the reasons already stated in the thread, I found them too be a little too expensive and squishy to justify compromising other parts of my list. The one time I tried them, I ran Ye Mao AP Spitfire, Adil, and a Tian Gou Combi-Jammer (mostly to save points) against TAK. The idea was for them to be a midfield hunter-killer force.

    It did alright. I didn't run them balls to the walls cuz TAK and their cheap templates being a nightmare for both Ye Mao and Adil; I only sent them in when I had a target in sight. Once I did have something within range, though, I walked up the haris, sensored a bunch of things with Adil, and then sprayed them with the jumping Ye Mao, which worked about as well as you'd expect. I then covered them with a Long Ya in suppression, which mostly kept them safe.

    So yeah, the game didn't really change my opinion of Ye Mao nor Adil. Ye Mao are good gunfighters, and Superjump is handy to have, if not nearly as abusable as it was before; but they're expensive and squishy. MSV1 is great when it's relevant, but still feels like a high-risk investment on such a squishy unit. Combined with super jump being so situational and terrain-dependent, it's hard not to feel like you're paying a bunch of points for rules which may or may not be useful.

    Adil is a very handy wildcard toolbox that's scary in a lot of different ways, but again, NWI without shock immune. Sensor and wildcard give him a fairly useful niche, but for most cases, I prefer a leaner team of Jing Qo + Shaolin if I want killy skirmishers, or just simply another Guilang.
     
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  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I feel Super Jump is even more worthless if you put them in a haris with a wildcard that can't do it. You might be fine if you are really good at it, but it kinda sucks that you can't even move the rest of the guys while he does SJ.
     
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  17. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    As a long time player of Bagh Mari, that AP spitfire is amazing. Super jump isn’t amazing anymore, but it means you can get to the top of buildings after an attack run and make it much harder to dig out. Msv1 and mimetism together are amazing. It will hit almost everything on 12s while the shot coming back, if you haven’t played with range bands, will be between 8 and 11. If you are careful with positioning and can manage to flank something, even a linked fusilier will be shooting at 6s while you’re coming in at 15s.

    On top of that, the AP spitfire is a phenomenal weapon for the game right now. CB has been boosting armor with the crit rules, tactical window, and lowered cost of most heavy units. So, you’re likely to see a significant amount of arm 4 and above, where the ap spitfire shows it’s quality. If you have a core linked Shang ji to force your opponent to duck, the Ye Mao as a solo attacker can have solid access to the table, likely able to avoid choke points with the help of super jump.
     
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  18. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Haris is often a trap. Often you can get by just fine with a solo attack piece and thats where the ye mao shines. It depends on the table how viable dz starting spitfires are but an AP one is a nice threat in N4
     
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  19. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    If you're taking a haris just for the +1 burst, it can be a bit of a trap. The key is to bake in some order efficiency into a toolbox of troopers that you'd want to be moving around in the first place. White Banner gets a lot of those, but whether they gel with the Ye Mao's kit is kind of all over the place.
     
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  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Can't really see myself taking one as a solo operator when the Tiger is BS13 with combat jump for +2 points. Against most targets catching them in the open from behind is a bigger threat in terms of armour reduction than AP.

    I like the multi rifle specialist profiles more as solo operators. They have more chance to do something interesting abusing smoke and MSV1, particularly when performing skirmisher hunting roles.

    Still I think they all really need to have Super Jump either deleted off the profile or fixed to really make them feel like they're worth their value.
     
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