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Steel Phalanx Enomotarchos in N4

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by yoink101, Nov 18, 2020.

  1. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    Giving them Haris could be an interesting alternative. You couldn't spam multiple units if them without adding in characters with Enomotarchos, and it would also limit them to 3 instead of 4. The advantage though would be being able to reform the link without a character during the game, which might be an unintended buff.

    I'm glad to hear that the team is reviewing them, now just get them to review the Minuteman Ohio suggestion I dropped you and @HellLois , haha! Thanks again!
     
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  2. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    Nice.

    My money is on Combi Rifle thorakitai with Fireteam: Enomotarchos at ≥15 points, maybe plus NCO for +0,5 CAP. Because we have to give something to the taxman and, as everyone knows, greeks always pay their debts...

    No. Wait, hold on...
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Nice to know :)

    I doubt that, I'm betting on a 18-20pts Thora, because making him a combi for 15 would make the 3xLGL combo even cheaper (by a point, but...). Dunno about the gear and weapons, thought.
     
  4. Bobblehead

    Bobblehead Well-Known Member

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    Just give all the Thoras numer 2 skill for free and they would be fine.
    Rhight now putting Alkle or Thras as team leader is a huge riskt. One bad FTF role and the link is broken and cant be reformed. Right now they are just a tax for creating the link that you dont really what to use until at least one of the links members goes down.

    You can put an additonal Enomotarchos in there but now your up in the Myrmidon link points range so it defeats the purpose of their existence.
    Why bring Thoras when you can bring Myrms for a tine bit more points...

    But i would aprove of an additional Enomotarchos option in the 18-20p range for them.
     
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  5. El tito Zylito

    El tito Zylito Active Member

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  6. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Yes please! Letting an agema join the team would be okay in my book as well.
     
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  7. Kortz

    Kortz Well-Known Member

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    Glad they are looking it, although they are a couple of things I like about them. They are a “line troop” with 3 Arm and decent stats, the cheaper Profiles have 360 Visor, they have good weapons for all ranges: SMG and Chain Rifle on Short, Marksman and LRL on Medium and HMG and the Feuerbach at long range. I used them (not a lot but not rarely either)in N3 for some lists and the profile that rarely was used in my lists was the Combi rifle (maybe the Paramedic too)

    I believe their place on SP (and Aleph) is somewhat between a slow push and sturdy backlines, before they were too slow, now not so much but their limited (and expensive fire team requirements) still remain. The change to Thrasimedes (no SWC cost) and Alke (NCO and no SWC profile) follow the N4 price changes and, to my linking, to “fulfill” their previous place in the new edition not as an improvement. I’m not saying there isn’t some new things for them, being able to make a Fireteam with Acmon (that received great buffs) and being able to add Hippolyta (CC fighter with Eclipse Grenades) are interesting additions to the Thorakitai Fire team. But this goes, I feel, against one of the best qualities of the Thorakitai, to be a somewhat cheap troop with simple but decent options.

    What options could be given to the Thorakitai without changing them a lot…

    - Maybe adding them Forward Deployment, gives them a better starting position, adds some map control but does not goes well for the Wildcard options in SP that would stay behind…

    - Having some profiles with the Minelayer skill, this can give the thorakitai quite a special place but I believe is quite hard coded for SP units to not have some kind of deployable weapon…

    - Adding more visor varieties (Biometric, MSV1, Visor X) or disposable weapons (Blitzen, Jammer or Pitcher) This can optimize and specialize more their decent weapon options, but would affect quite hard on their price range, once again going against being this capable not so expensive line troop shooter…

    - Doubling down on their weapons, Adding Damage to BS Shots, +1 Burst to some of the profiles or adding some ammo property (AP, Shok, Continuous Damage or some others) is an interesting thought but I find quite hard to think the cost or change for this to happen.

    I agree that the main problem lies in their limited fire team composition that asks for a specific and hard payment. The changes to Alke, Thrasymedes and Acmon are in a good direction so maybe something in the same line of thought could be made…

    - Maybe Adding Thamiris, the new Patroclus, the Myrmidon Officer or the Agema (unlikely) to the lineup able to make Fireteam with them is a conversation to be had. Still there is the problem of the hard price to be payed but having more options is something…

    - Reducing their AVA to the standard 4 but making them this kind of wildcard to the other fire teams on SP (Dactyls and Myrmidons) on a limited amount (something like: “Up to two Thorakitai can be part of a Dactyl or Myrmidon Enomotarchos Fire team”)

    - Finally, something more radical could be done, adding a new unit that works with them (Thorakitai Officers, Amazon troops, a new character or something that already exists (maybe something from O12) without overlapping with the Myrmidon options…

    Well that’s, my rant… I do like the Thorakitai and their miniatures are not bad but they feel a lot lackluster against similar troops, even more against the Myrmidon Fire teams. What addition or change would be better of SP and the Thorakitai?

    A list of the Thorakitai & the profiles that can make a Fire team with them:



    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────


    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9

    THORAKITES Feuerbach, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 23)

    THORAKITES Heavy Machine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 22)

    THORAKITES (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)

    THORAKITES Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 16)

    THORAKITES Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)

    THORAKITES Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

    THORAKITES (Paramedic, 360º Visor) Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

    THORAKITES (Forward Observer, 360º Visor) Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)

    THORAKITES (360º Visor) Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)


    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1

    THRASYMEDES FTO (Fireteam: Enomotarchos) Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 30)

    ACMON Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 31)

    ALKÊ (NCO) MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25)

    HECTOR (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser, Grenades ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 69)


    3 SWC | 302 Points


    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #67 Kortz, Nov 25, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I don't think that's a very sensible stance to take. By that logic, people should be able to demand that any beneficial data error be made permanent. There have been a bunch of N4 errors that got fixed, even if it was against the will of the players; why is this one so special?
     
  9. Iver

    Iver Human Plus

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    I don't think the Thora profiles themselves will change, and nor would I want them to. They're a great unit with a versatile kit.
    They're looking at Thora fireteam composition, and I feel it likely we might get a one or two more of our characters able to form the Enomotarchos with them rather than them getting Haris or Core. CB is trying to keep the theme and feel of the army, which is cool. I don't mind buying a hero that support their role in the army to lead them, though I liked the idea of a couple small cheap reactive Thora links to order feed my hungry warbands more.

    I completely agree here, despite also being a bit sad about losing out on that bit of freedom in listbuilding. I'm sure that PanO players also got sad about losing their short-lasting access to regular smoke. People get mad when handed a thing and then see it taken away again. The fires of outrage will be short lasting i'm sure.
     
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  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It's special because it's a quality of life improvement that some of us have been demanding for years (for example, take out Alke and recycle her into a "thorakitai subofficer"), and because the Enomotarchos mechanics are unique, not even tohaa change +1 member for a "hero tax" (a tax that, in N3, made the "unlimited enomotarchos" a catch 22, due to point limits capping it at 2-3 links at most, so you would be changing the +3 of a 5man fireteam Core, and the haris everyone had, for being able to deploy three undergeared fireteams of 4, with half of the models being the cheapest option available, meaning impractical).

    As for the clamor, we have come to a point in which it's either mob flashes, or complete silence from CB. A log of changes was promised, but it's been weeks since the last change was logged, while those changes kept happening. This lack of logs doesn't mean that "corrections" can be silently made without no one being the wiser, since there are enough players around to notice those changes, but means that new players are confused all the time (and can think the Army is an unstable and not something they should trust) while veteran players who are used to keep their eyes into most faction's units feel frustrated due to needing to check everything all the time.
     
  11. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    The problem I see is that, anything given different for thora's FT will be asked to be given to myrmi's FT too, because myrmis "should be better" at creating fireteams, have better training and so.

    Some other factions have been also asking for some changes that haven't been (And will not happen). This one is allready an improvement compared to n3...other factions had instead the "remain mostly the same than n2" (not even n3) still
     
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  12. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    While I would like to see some changes like a generic Thorakitai Sgt and new Thora profiles I'll add that to the list of "things I want to see when revisiting Steel Phalanx" alongside generic Amazons and Hoplites.

    For now I could see a temporary fix being allowing Thoras to join Dactyl links. One of the four link options the Thoras have is already a Dactyl (Acmon) and it does reinforce the role of Thoras being more defensive and protecting the more directly support troops.

    I disagree, while Myrmis are more "elite" troops they are still thematically deployed in support of the Heroes, while Thorakitai are more deployed in a "standard" fashion. Just because they are "better" doesn't mean they should be more free in forming fireteams (although, at this point they are since they have far more options). I could see the Hero Enomotarchos being a Myrmi thing rather than an SP thing (since we already have an exception to that in Dactyls).
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It's precisely the other way around, because wer are talking about different training regimes: the Thoras are the garrison troop, the defensive core, the slow and steady advance. The Myrmidons are the band of heroes kept together by more experienced heroes (with name) or recreations designed to be able to do so. If anything, it would make more sense to Thorakitai to be able to form haris and core fireteam, but for balance issues they do not (which is why we want a way to forma Thorakitai enomotarchos that does not include an AVA 1 character we can easily lose in campaign mode, for example).

    Nope, linking Thoras with Dactyls at this time would mean to see dactyl doctors in thoras fireteams, and that would be a paradigm shift. At this moment, Machaon is the only linkable doctor, and making Acmon a wildcard simply meant he is another linkable engineer (the thorakitai have an engineer profile that is good enough).

    Personally, I see two options: a Thorakitai subofficer profile with AVA 2-3, or a thorakitai profile with enomotarchos within the AVA6 existing entry. Both appropiately priced, but cheaper (hopefully) than Alke with her CD damage +1 and Tac Awareness (because they wouldn't have those skills).
     
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    they are the defensive link because the meta (And some people) has made them so, not because by lore they are that exactly, that role is the agema's. At least is how I saw and understood them since the beggining, and the reason a lot of people didn't like them then. After all, their inclusion in the army was to provide cheaper troops to the sectorial and deffend the backline from flanking, more than bringing a backline of long aro shooters (again, the agema's role)
     
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  15. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    Maybe it is because I come from Ariadna where we don't have Cubes, but the changes to medikit is already a gamechanger on a level that the 6pt upgrade to doctor is just that, an upgrade, especially in a high PH faction like SP. Also, Dactyls are already linkable with themselves, so if you really want a linked doctor to support your Myrmi frontline it is not that big of an investment to make a 3 man Enomotarchos out of one Dactyl Doctor and two Engineers, which has an additional benefit of being able to double-tap Flammenspeers twice.

    I don't see the Thoras being presented as particularly more aggressive than any other line infantry any other army has that is mostly relegated to a defensiveish core. I'd also argue that by giving them the ability to link with a 20pt Dactyl Doctor I'd be more inclined to bring a Thora HMG than in any other link we have access to now.
     
  16. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    partially agree, thoras are not represented that way...myrmidons are, while agemas are the backline troopers. Thoras are more the midfield specialists and deffenders of the backline (So myrmidons don't get rounded), but here people want them to be the standard long range deffensive link, which other "basic troopers" are because those other are indeed descrived as fulfilling for more roles than thoras., while not being so good at deffending the backline

    on the dactyl, I agree... everybody wants doctors in as many fireteams as they can.. but SP has allready macaon and dactyls as linkable doctors. Maybe dactyls cannot join other fireteams..but wildcards can join theirs. Also, remember that thoras have allready access to engineer, having access to both specialists in the same fireteam is not so widespreead, even less would be the possibility to put a doctor in each fireteam of the army!
     
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  17. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    While I think a core team of thorakitae with agemas being allowed in would bring them more in line with current sectorials, I don’t know if I like it. It definitely doesn’t feel like Steel phalanx. I think giving Atalanta marksmanship and total reaction was a really creative way to approach it. Now she essentially has the benefit of a core team, but is still the solo sniper that she’s always been.

    I would love this. It used to be that sectorials were intentionally very limited in their tools and that they got fireteams in exchange. More and more, sectorials seem to have more access to a wider variety of options. With that in mind, I would love to see thorakitae get a minelayer profile.
     
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  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Not exactly. The Agemas are the marksmen, the lone scalpels for long range hits. The Agema are the bunch of dudes holding a position together. Yes, both are defensive units, but not in the same way. It would be like saying the Total Reaction bot is defensive, and a core of 5 terrace Unidrons is not.

    First, regarding the Disposable stuff, the recharge tax of 1 regular order per model is quite hard, and second that role would be covered already by LGL Thorakitai.
    As for the change, Thoras already have a Paramedic, true, but there are secondary missions that require a medic, and beyond that, the Enomotarchos at this moment do not mix, which is why I said it would be a paradigm shift (and I doubt that CB will do so with an OOP sectorial, frankly, which is why I'm trying to aim for less radical options).

    Where? How? The only long range weapons they have are the Feuerbach and the HMG, and those range cap at 120cm (48'', I think), which is a nice range, but tied with what Myrm heroes can bring to bear (Phoenix, for example) and the TR bot. The LGL "cannon battery" is quite interesting due to SWC cost 0 and a range of 20-60 (8-24'' I think) of +3 (dropping inmediately to -3), so at best they are medium range defensive link in that configuration.

    To be fair, they have forward observer, engineer and paramedic... they lack only hackers and doctors to cover all specialist options, that is true.
     
  19. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    This is my take on the matter, more or less. Things like linking Agema, thorakitai core, thorakitai officers, wildcard dactyls, generic sophists, hoplites, amazons, horse-shaped TAG with advanced command, impersonation and a funny hat and...

    Not going to happen, or at least I don't think so. Whatever they do, it's likely to be the smallest adjustment possible to solve the issue, both in terms of faction design and faction balance. That's why I think it's going to be an adjustment to some generic thorakitai profile and... that would be it.

    At least until people at CB get over their terrible allergy to money and decide to launch a greek resculpt instead of... space russian werebears.
     
    #79 Sigeric, Nov 25, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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